From the movie Righteous Kill the tag line is “There’s Nothing Wrong With A Little Shooting As Long As the Right People Get Shot“…sure that’s Hollywood, but it seems this could be applied to the law enforcement investigation of Seattle Detective Ron Smith whose felony assault charges for shooting a member of the Hells Angels motorcycle club in Sturgis were dismissed yesterday.
Dropped because as Jesse Sondreal (Meade County State Attorney) states:
“the investigation that I have reviewed indicates he (Smith) was assaulted and it was premeditated.” The investigation established that Detective Smith was defending himself from a violent pre-meditated attack and he responded in a manner which was neither excessive nor unreasonable under the circumstances.
DeNiro Target Range
While the case illustrates reserving final judgment until all facts are examined it leaves some unanswered questions about how much, if any, the Sturgis incident was influenced by Smith’s testimony in a Hell’s Angel federal racketeering and murder trial in Seattle last year which sent several former and current members of the motorcycle “club” to prison ranging from seven years to life without parole. Or how much the decision to dismiss the assault charges were based on the lack of cooperation of the HAMC who wouldn’t testify before the grand jury?
The Seattle Times (Jennifer Sullivan) reports HERE that Court records and police testimony indicate Smith has clashed with another Hells Angel back in 2005. Authorities filed charges alleging that Anthony James Magnesi, a member of the Washington Nomads chapter of the Hells Angels, had threatened Smith over the phone. The end result from an internal investigation dismissed misdemeanor charges filed against Magnesi and Smith was referred to his supervisor for a training issue. Much more on the Magnesi clashes HERE.
Detective Smith will return to full active duty (he was on administrative leave pending results) and obviously the Seattle Police Officers Guild is happy with the outcome and issued a press release HERE.
For more background information look at:
- Northwest Harley Blog Archive | Iron Pigs Ride The Northwest
- Northwest Harley Blog Archive | When Iron Pigs Fly
- Northwest Harley Blog Archive | Sturgis Ends With First Shooting In 20 Years
- NEW – Northwest Harley Blog Archive | Behind The Scenes Of The Sturgis Shooting
- NEW – Northwest Harley Blog Archive | Cash Is The Icing On Iron Pigs HR218 Cupcake
I don’t know about you, but I’m a bit conflicted and feeling this outcome is anti-climatic. Does this mean the Iron Pigs won’t return to Sturgis next year? Can the motorcycle events industry afford yet another motorcycle “club” clash?
Operator, I need Mr. Happy. Now!
Update: November 18, 2008 – Weapons charges dropped. See HERE for more info.
Update: May 7, 2010 – Detective Ronald Smith has filed a lawsuit against the city of Seattle and the Seattle Police Department. Even though all charges were dropped the suit alleges the department disparaged him and negligently provided false information that led to his indictment on a perjury charge. This was an embarrassment and the lawsuit contends his reputation was harmed.
Photo courtesy of the movie Righteous Kill web site.
Northwest Harley Blog 
Hey, I feel everybody has the right to defend themselves or others from attack.
While this may be settled in the eyes of the court, I bet it’s not really over with in the eyes of all participants, unfortunately.
Ride it like you stole it
Who expected a different outcome? Please, the “fix” was in from the beginning.
How can they call the attack premeditated when LEO groups like Iron Pigs bring it on themselves. They want to be portrayed as the good guys. However, they only revert back to being the good guys when something hits the fan, until then, they are more than happy to pretend to be a three piece outlaw club.
This is indisputable as their websites before the incident stated, (keep in mind I have not checked back since, I have better things to do in my life than run around checking on posers) that they will not ask permission to wear their colors. (every other club does in fact take the time to have their colors, both the color and design approved by their dominate area clubs, this has been part of the lifestyle for as long as I have been around, decades) they also make inflammatory statements on their websites about being part of the largest gang their is, law enforcement. They even go as far as to steal slogans from known 1% clubs such as “Cut one we all bleed”.
Then they turn around, walk into the very environment that they dig and needle at, and the only way to extract themselves from a situation they put themselves in is with gun play.
Bottom line is, if police departments around the country are going to allow their members to run around in public, off duty playing three piece outlaw biker, they should not have the protection of law enforcement regulations to fall back on when the stuff hits the fan, mostly out of their own doing.
If these clubs took the time to become sanctioned, like every other three piece club does, and played by the rules, and didn’t steal slogans from other clubs, incidents like this would not take place to begin with.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, most likely you have seen a duck. At least until the gun smoke clears, and they have gone back to being police officers with all the protections that affords them.
These people are shunned by the biker world, and, they are starting to get the same feedback from the “good” cops who work hard every day doing a thankless job. It is their reputation and image that is also tarnished by behavior exhibited by groups like this.
WJ
My daughter and I were in Sturgis on Vacation the night this happened. The place this happened in had more then adequate ON DUTY police coverage. The need for an off-duty LEO from another state to open fire in a crowded establishment for fear of getting beat up is beyond me – instead of hearing open-fire happen the crowd should have heard screams from the LEO’s buddies for Professional help..
If a stray bullet from this Officer Smiths weapon would have made contact with an innocent bystander (THANK GOD IT DIDNT!!) there would be hell to pay from the general public (and there should be anyway)…
As it is, I am certain that the Judges ruling in the case has opened a HUGE can of worms which will result in MANY people attending these rallys carrying concealed weapons to protect themselves from both the low-life 1%s to the cops that are copying them..
PLEASE – LEO’s have got to learn to control themselves or they are no better then the filth they are suppose to protect us from!!
Scott from Mi
Hey Scott,
You gotta get a clue here. The bar reportedly had over five hundred people in it. Lots of noise and confusion.
A cry for help would have been drowned out. Smith had suffered a broken nose and a broken cheek bone before he opened fire. How much damage was he supposed to suffer before he did something? How much would you take before doing something besides yelling for help?
As a firearms instructor, I commend Smith for putting his rounds where they needed to go.
Bottom Line: The prospect should have known who he was dealing with. Cops carry guns. His sponsor should have known that too.
Lesson learned.
@ Retired LE – do you have a source or news URL for the injuries which Smith suffered? I’ve not seen a news outlet report that he had a broken nose and cheek bone before opening fire.
Thx.
An aside to Stugis – the Oregon Veterans Motorcycle Association, once 600 members strong, is no more. Sources with the OVMA and with other Vet clubs and motorcycle rights organizations in the state report the OVMA was ordered by a major Oregon 1%er club to shut its doors by the 24th of October – this Godfather-like “deal you can’t refuse” has shut down the 18-year old and largest VET association in the state, as of last night’s executive board meeting vote.
Oregon and federal LE has information the 1%er club involved in the shut-down is the Gypsy Jokers.
Smith recieved fairly serious facial injuries during the beat-down; the HA shot is not a prospect but rather a full patch out of SOCAL; the officers and fire fighter involved still face weapons violations as they violated SD law regarding carrying firearms into an establishment serving alcohol AND they are – apparently – not HR218 certified and if they were the self-admission of drinking prior to the beating/shooting invalidates their carry privilege under HR218.
The officers and fire fighter (who is covered by zero-zip-nada and therefore screwed right about now regarding weapons charges) COULD have used far better judgement when first approached and simply begged off, gone outside, tapped one of about 60 uniformed and eager cops on duty at the saloon on the shoulder, offered they were cops and the Angels were harassing them, and the HA would have been hussled out ASAP and sent down the road. Sturgis and contract LE have been doing that for years now and everyone whose anyone knows the game and how it’s played.
Instead, they apparently had alcohol onboard; were wearing their “colors” which they knew the HAMC was at odds with the IP Nation in general over; and instead of being the crafty, wise, and devious street cops they should have been they puffed up and played by 1%er rules.
No one is a winner here and HR218 is now the focus of attention as to how it has to be properly implimented before ANY officer, active or retired, can carry and be considered legal in states outside their own boundries.
This is a mess for everyone – and it could have been avoided by those entrusted to think and behave better than those they slap the cuffs on.
Mac,
I don’t recall where I got the information in Det. Smith’s injuries. I have been to a large number of sites gathering info about the incident, but I didn’t record the source codes or url’s. I imagine one could verify what injuries Det. Smith did suffer by obtaining a copy of the grand jury transcript – unless of course it has been sealed.
Pappy,
Sad to hear about the OVMA being intimidated out of existence by a KNOWN OUTLAW MOTORCYCLE GANG.
I am frankly surprised that someone isn’t coming to their aid. All OVMA has to do is ask for help.
Retired LE – Agreed – and help is available and willing and aware – all it takes is for a few good souls to make it happen – if the appropriate people don’t step up to the plate the OVMA should change, in its last month, its patch colors from blue to yellow and stop calling itself a VETERANS association as VETS don’t run from trouble – they run towards it.
Pappy,
You must be an idealist. Not a bad thing by the way.
This may end up with the OVMA splitting into two factions; those that want to stay in the game, i.e., stand for what they have worked for, and those who fold their cards and walk away.
Lets hope the people who started this garbage are put in their place. IMHO, they are pushing weight around they don’t have. They only win if we let em.
Retired LE – this is fast moving and the right folks are chiming in that it will remain blue, not yellow.
Mac – your high school friend got you message. send second with specific question(s) –
The real veterans are running toward, not from, this BS.
Pappy,
My hats off to em. I hope they stand firm. BS is indeed what it is.
Time for some to get the message that they don’t run things.
Caesar
KPMC
Apparently a general membership message has been sent to the OVMA by its state vice president –
The OVMA’s attorney has stated the former president has been formally advised he cannot dissolve the association on the basis of the situation as described to him and the OVMA will block and/or hold accountable any effort on his part to do so.
Members across the state, now being properly educated as to what has happened, are not supporting any shut-down of the OVMA and state they will continue to fly the OVMA colors.
To further assess, coordinate, and cooperate with those helping the legitimate actions being taken by responsible parties in the OVMA no state officers’ meeting or any further “emergency” meetings will be held in the near term.
Seems like the vets are going about this the right way and have no intention of being blackmailed or extorted.
“These colors don’t run”
first of all a pig should’nt wear colors or act like a club member there 2 faced as it is. if it was a normal citizen they would have been charged the police need to stop acting like there bad asses, a vest and a rocker isnt a badge it open game….
Mike,
Your foul mouthed rhetoric states clearly what you are about and what you stand for. It ain’t good.
Your kind likes to spout off about respect, yet you apparently have none yourself. Why shouldn’t a Police Officer or a regular citizen wear Colors? Do you have the patent on that or something?
It used to be folks like Mike felt that way (a “patent”) about only 3-piece “colors”.
Now at least one club feels that way about 1-piece “colors” to.
If so, that means anyone wearing association or club “colors” from any catagory of motorcycle riding / enjoyment (i.e. GoldWing Club, H.O.G., Legion Riders, Blue Knights, VMC, and certainly in the spotlight now – the OVMA – can expect harrassement, intimidation and physical violence if a 1%er club takes offence.
Let’s turn that around. If you fly any colors whatsoever and you harass, intimidate, threaten violence, or commit violence against any other rider or association/club member, the victim and the club they belong to should file an immediate complaint with law enforcement and pursue charges.
That’s how it works for LEOs who, rightly or wrongly, abuse their position – and that’s how it should work for guys like “Mike” whose world viewpoint centers on a pinprick of a subculture in our society.
As of today the new president of the OVMA has sent an email to all members urging them, if harrassed, threatened, or the subject of intimidation by – specifically – the Gypsy Jokers Motorcycle Club – to contact their local police, file a report, get the report number, and let the state president know what took place.
It can be presumed both the NW VETS MC and the Road Brothers MC, both support clubs for the Gypsy Jokers MC, are included in this request.
The request also announces the president has done just this himself, and both local, state, and federal (ATF) are actively involved.
Safety of the membership as well as preventing an illegal shut-down of the Oregon Veterans Motorcycle Association is paramount. Members are free to choose, at this stage of the game, whether they will fly their “colors” or not. No one with legitimate authority within the OVMA state officer structure is telling anyone what is best for them, one way or the other.
Seems like the hard right is being done over the easy wrong by the OVMA – should be a good example for the rest of us regardless of what we ride, who we ride with, and where we go.
Pappy you need to get your shit togather and get your facts right Yes the road brothers are a support club but as far as I know and have heard from the members of NWvetsmc they got help from the Jokers to get the club started but they stand on their own. and are neutral the shit hit the fan both times without their knowing what was going to happen and they want to stay out of the problem and were told to stay out of it so that is just what they are doing. Most of the nwvmc are ex ovma members and just got tired of ovma officers bull shit and petty clicks so they got help and started a club with the ok of all the members of the OCC. so dont disrespect the NVMC and call them a support club your miss information is part of the broblem with theOVMA
JJ, you need to get your chit together, appears you have been away from the OVMA too long to know and/or understand it. You talk like you are the spokesman for the NWV’s, if so you need to tell them to cease and discist disrespecting Veterans IMMEDIATELY. Was you on the recruiting ride with Big Ken, you are the one lacking accurate knowledge. As for the RB’s, in their recruiting efforts, they identify themselves as a support club of the GJ’s. As for the NWV’s, they too are a support club of the GJ’s and you know it. JJ, you are more full of hear say and inaccurate statements than any one I have encountered, the facts are the facts, the truth shall prevail. The OVMA is here to stay, we will not bow down and disappear.
Glad to hear the OVMA is taking the right steps to address this issue.
Had not heard of those two support clubs. Good to know who their friends are. Knowledge is power.
Word is others are getting onboard – clubs and associations and organizations around the state. No one wants to be pushed around – and many won’t be – the 99% may be slow to anger but once they are the 1% should do the math.
Many thanks from lots of folks out there to the cops who are helping – it’s easy to do it the right way when you get the right help.
Free the “Colors” Day – Oregon
Many years ago I was first a member, then Deputy State Coordinator, then State Coordinator of ABATE of Washington. Back then ABATE stood for “A Brotherhood Against Totalitarian Enactments”, back then it was an organization open to all the brothers and sisters who rode, to all the brothers and sisters who believed in their right of Choice.
Choice as to whether or not to wear a skid lid; Choice to belong to another association, organization, clique, club or to ride independent as well as belong to ABATE; Choice to gather in those groups we prefer to gather with, to associate with who we choose to; to be free from intimidation, fear, and bodily harm from government or anyone else.
The choice to educate others – to stand up for what’s right – to decry what’s wrong – to Live Free – that was the ABATE I belonged to.
What is taking place today with the Oregon Veterans Motorcycle Association, an 18-year association of Free motorcyclists and their families, is unacceptable. Its 600+ members represent of all the Services of our Armed Forces. They have served, fought, bled, been wounded, been injured, lost and still mourn comrades who gave their lives for our freedom and way of life. Being a combat veteran moves me to share my thoughts on this matter and then, as all good causes require, to issue a call to action.
On the 25th of October, the day after the OVMA has been ordered to pull its “colors”, to cease to exist as an non-profit association, to “patch over” to a club more “in favor” with the Oregon 1%er club with roughly 40 members that has taken offense with the OVMA, let’s take back all of our “Colors” and support the OVMA’s courageous and public stand against street tyranny.
As with ABATE I am a proud past member of the OVMA as well as the Blue Knights. Today I choose to ride free, to enjoy anyone along the way who shares a love for this country and respect for themselves. My “colors” are Red, White, and Blue. I fought as a “Green Beret” in two wars for these sacred colors, and I wore an Oregon peace officer’s badge with honor to uphold the law and to bring order out of disorder, peace out of chaos. Tyrants and bullies of any sort or category are an anathema to me. Those who would attempt to shut down a charitable association like the OVMA, whose most recent event was escorting the moving Vietnam Wall within the State of Oregon and whose ongoing support of our returning wounded and injured veterans is unquestioned, are intolerable.
That said, I offer that this October 25th be known as “Free the Colors” Day at the grassroots level across this state. Let every rider regardless of affiliation openly support the OVMA’s courageous stand against street tyranny. Understand the issue is bigger than just the OVMA because if certain groups among us are successful in terrorizing this legal non-profit veterans organization then no one from any category of club, association, or organization on two wheels is safe from the same cowardly treatment.
Whoever you are, whatever you ride, whatever you wear, put on whatever “colors” you may cherish to include our nation’s proud flag and let’s send an unmistakable message of support, brotherhood, and unity to each other across the state. Let’s gather at the MC shops, the diners, the taverns, the parks, the clubhouses, the meeting halls, or wherever we might see and visit with each other for the purpose of taking back what a small percentage of individuals wrongly believe belongs only to them…freedom of association, freedom from tyranny, freedom of Choice.
If this message hits you in your Heart, Soul and Gut then pass it along by any and all means possible.
The most overlooked amendment to the United States Constitution is Amendment IX. It reads; “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” These rights includes the Right of Free Assembly…the Right to Privacy…the Right of Free Association…and the Right to defend ourselves against Oppressors, both foreign and domestic.
On October 25th, let’s take back everyone’s “Colors” and honor our veterans as we do so. Carefully organize – Peacefully assemble – Fly your “colors” whatever they may be.
It’s time the 1% heard loud and clearn from the 99%.
De Oppresso Liber –
“Pappy”
so your saying that 99% should tell 1% to take off there colors , but its ok for 99% to keep there colors , wtf pappy you dont know jack dude ….and your just like those bastards that talk all day but go home alone , get a life .. leave the gypsy jokers alone as well as the “suport clubs or any other clubs out there , hell theres a hole bunch of the 1% clubs or i would say the 20% that live a serton way , we all (the 20 % or so ) live with certon rules or mottos ect , and your telling us to not wear out colors in public …….. ” as far as your “free the colors day ” man if i wanna wear mine in public i will , you can wear yours too , thats a good thing to do , there “your” colors wear em with pride , but dont tell the rest of us we cant wear ours ,thats bs get a clue or get a new hobby !
People that get beat up for a piece of cloth they didn’t prospect for don’t strike me as particularly heroic, just nuts.
Part of the reason I never put any kind of patch on the back of my vest. Yep, I’m a vet, but, never felt the need to go around showing it off. I’m betting since there is only 600 in the OVMA, that a lot of other vets in oregon feel the same way.
In fact, I’m betting if the OVMA wanted to put a small patch on the front of the vest, and lose the one on the back, the whole thing would go away.
But, some folks just seem to need that ongoing recognition, no matter what kind of grief or harm it could bring on them or anyone else.
Best of luck to you, hope it goes well for you, certainly hope all the chest puffing doesn’t get anyone hurt.
Biker world is a funny place, 1%ers generally ignore anyone that doesn’t fly a patch. Lots of groups only have small patches that are worn on the front, and they get along fine and stay off the radar of the 1% clubs.
Seems to me nobody said the OVMA folks could no longer associate. Seems to me nobody said they couldn’t ride together, do all the good things they do together. From what I heard, it’s all about the patch.
You guys really that bent on getting your identity from a patch? That piece of blue cloth make you what you are? I’m thinking, and this is just me, that you would be the same group of people doing the same good thing and having the same fun if you had the patch or not.
Basicly, this whole thing seems to revolve around a 10 inch by 12 inch piece of blue and gold cloth.
If even one woman or child gets hurt because of the “uprising”, will it have been worth it?
Dunno, good luck. Conviences me even more of why I never put anything at all back there.
Windy Joe –
It’s a one piece patch; it’s always been a one piece patch; for 18 years it’s been a one piece patch; it was blessed by the Oregon CoC; for years the OVMA has offered it is a neutral organization; for years all the 1%er clubs have enjoyed a good relationship with the members of this organization; the OVMA has been formally represented in the CoC (for years); it lost its vote recently but was reinstated in the CoC due to that organization’s membership – representing both 99% and 1% clubs – voted it was absurd not to have the OVMA represented; the problem, if there was a legitimate problem, should have been an agenda item for the CoC…but the vote would have gone in favor of the OVMA just as it did on reinstatement…and certain folks knew that and decided to do an end run and threaten physical injury/death if the OVMA didn’t just “go away”.
Your argument could just as easily apply to the 1%er clubs.
This is nothing but a personal agenda that the OVMA is standing up to. Your argument offers if someone gets hurt, is it worth it? What that really says is that the 1%er club in question indeed did what it did and threatens violence if they don’t get their way.
In essence, you’re supporting someone else’s criminal means of taking from someone else, and affirming in point that’s exactly what may happen.
You offer you’re a vet; great. The OVMA, as with the VMC, as with the In-Country Vets, have the right to form an organization and affiliate. Just like folks can join ABATE and affiliate, regardless of being an independent or a member of a recognized group.
You may not have worn a patch on your back; you may wear a membership patch on your front; however, back or front your view offers if someone in one organization takes offence at someone else’s…it really doesn’t matter where your patch is.
The mafia has tried and in some cases succeeded in shutting down labor unions, or forceably enlisting their unwilling support. Other unions have fought back – as they should – and remained legitimate, helpful, powerful, respectable organizations. The OVMA is doing just this, legally and by being up front with the greater Oregon MC community.
Your argument is the same argument I’ve studied and fought against in El Salvador and Iraq – it’s the “Al Queda” doctrine…the old “FMLN” doctrine. “If you don’t do or give us what we want someone, anyone may get hurt…and wouldn’t you feel bad about that?”
That’s terrorism, pure and simple.
And if you hadn’t noticed we’ve been fighting a global war on terrorism, both foreign and domestic, since 2001.
I agree with Mac’s editorial on the NW Hog blog – you might want to read it.
Pappy, I spoke with someone last night with close ties to the OVMA people at the top. Here is what he told me.
If your saying that all the OVMA people are on board with this, your talking out a hole that don’t normally talk. From what he said, folks at the top of OVMA are calling it chaos. There was not a meeting this month, nor will there be one next month.
Communication between members is sporadic, not everyone has the full or right story, and, if folks are thinking about fighting this then it must be a very small splinter group because as far as folks at the top go the whole membership as of yesterday afternoon doesn’t even have the full story.
yea, I understand, your an ex-cop, several of you on here are. Cops and bikers been at odds for years.
Even us guys with no patch have for decades been subject to your games and harassment. Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it doesn’t fit real good apparently.
Perhaps we need to have the OVMA officers log in here and read this, see what they think.
Bottom line, the only thing I have attempted to do here is to keep some patch wearng people out of harms way should they be approached by club members regarding their patch.
And, even that is taken the wrong way. Sad that people can’t see someone is just trying to keep them safe and have to get all uppity, about it.
Fine, I’m done trying to educate people. You all go do what you feel like you gotta do. I promise, if you get mouthy to some of the 1%ers to their face and it comes down, I won’t even say I told you so.
Windy Joe,
Speaking for myself only here. All will be good unless the ones you have knowledge about initiate something against me or those I care about.
I for one won’t get in anyone’s face and get mouthy as you say. That’s not my style. My motto is live and let live. If the other side follows that, we have no problems.
However, that doesn’t mean I just slink away when confronted. If that happens, I will respond appropriately. That is my style. Always has been.
I hope the OVMA succeeds in standing up for what they collectively believe in.
Windy Joe,
Just saw your post above (#2) and was compelled to respond. Sorry I didn’t read it sooner.
I will preface your comments with WJ, and mine with Retired LE.
WJ – How can they call the attack premeditated when LEO groups like Iron Pigs bring it on themselves. They want to be portrayed as the good guys. However, they only revert back to being the good guys when something hits the fan,
Retired LE – What hit the fan as you say was a group of Hells Angels with an axe to grind that apparently went looking for a confrontation. They got it.
WJ – until then, they are more than happy to pretend to be a three piece outlaw club.
Retired LE – They are not pretending to be a three piece OUTLAW club. They are a three piece club. By the way, one example of a non outlaw three piece patch club is the Boozefighters M/C who have been around since 1946. They are not one percenter, nor outlaw, and they allow LE’s in their ranks.
WJ – This is indisputable as their websites before the incident stated, (keep in mind I have not checked back since, I have better things to do in my life than run around checking on posers)
Retired LE – There you go with the non respect again. Posers? …. You need to learn more of that respect you speak of.
WJ – that they will not ask permission to wear their colors. (every other club does in fact take the time to have their colors, both the color and design approved by their dominate area clubs, this has been part of the lifestyle for as long as I have been around, decades)
Retired LE – What you are not getting here, is that a law enforcement club cannot in good conscience go to a known criminal organization in their area and ask permission to do anything. To do so violates their ethics, their oaths, and they then become owned by the dominants. Can’t happen. Won’t happen.
WJ – they also make inflammatory statements on their websites about being part of the largest gang their is, law enforcement. They even go as far as to steal slogans from known 1% clubs such as “Cut one we all bleed”.
Retired LE – It’s a hard fact. The LE community is much larger than any outlaw club. We watch each other’s backs just like they do. You might pass that around to your outlaw friends and try to educate them as you are trying to do here.
WJ – Then they turn around, walk into the very environment that they dig and needle at, and the only way to extract themselves from a situation they put themselves in is with gun play.
Retired LE – Assuming you are referring to the Sturgis shooting. The Iron Pigs were in a public bar. They were there first by all accounts and had been there off and on all week. The Hells Angels came in on the night in question and positioned members to block the exits – which prompted the bar owner to call for reinforcements. The HA were looking for a confrontation and they found it. Fair fights are for the ring.
WJ – Bottom line is, if police departments around the country are going to allow their members to run around in public, off duty playing three piece outlaw biker, they should not have the protection of law enforcement regulations to fall back on when the stuff hits the fan, mostly out of their own doing.
Retired LE – Again they aren’t playing three piece outlaw biker. The three piece patch is not the exclusive property of the outlaws. You need to get past that.
WJ – If these clubs took the time to become sanctioned, like every other three piece club does, and played by the rules, and didn’t steal slogans from other clubs, incidents like this would not take place to begin with.
Retired LE – How can an LE club join the various CoC’s and get sanctioned when many of those organizations (who are typically populated by known criminal outlaw motorcycle gangs) do not allow LE types in their ranks? Kind of a catch 22 isn’t it?
WJ – If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, most likely you have seen a duck. At least until the gun smoke clears, and they have gone back to being police officers with all the protections that affords them.
Retired LE – When confronted, the Officer responded. The HA who started the fight should have known this. He paid for it. His sponsor should be held accountable for not educating him on what could have happened. But maybe he did….
WJ – These people are shunned by the biker world,
Retired LE – They are only shunned by those in the outlaw biker world. Who cares?
WJ – the “good” cops who work hard every day doing a thankless job.
Retired LE – You finally state something I can agree with. It is a thankless job done by good cops (I removed the italics), made more difficult by those of your world who like to intimidate and bully those who they don’t happen to agree with.
WJ – It is their reputation and image that is also tarnished by behavior exhibited by groups like this.
Retired LE – Time will tell.
Here is a web-site that may be helpful. It provides a lot if info and answers a lot of questions concerning various types of Motorcycle Clubs, Riding Clubs, Motorcycle Associations, etc..
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcvsmc-edu/
There is a lot of reading and getting through it all is time-consuming, but well worth it.
I’m going to post this on several related threads, so don’t be surprised if you run across it in another area. Not trying to “clog up the blog”,… just think that it is a good site which may help those unfamiliar with patch-holders and club life have a bit of insight into our world.
Respects,
Hermano Roadrash
PS: I still maintain that the best way to get to know the club world is to respectfully meet and get to know a patch-holder or two (or more) in person.
@ Hermano Roadrash – thanks for posting the URL. Indeed it is good information and helpful background/insight.
-mac
To Hermano Roadrash,
The site you mention (and the information in it) needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
The contributors are those of the 1%er (outlaw) world (or their supporters) and this is how they would like everyone to think and operate.
Their brand of respect is often confused with fear and intimidation.
I will allow that it is informative in that it shows a window into the outlaw way of thinking.
Here is an article which I enjoy very much. Although not written by or about bikers (as far as I can tell), it does a very good job of differentiating between outlaws and criminals.
I think very often outsiders throw around the word “outlaw” intending it as an insult and are then confused when it doesn’t seem to offend the very people they are trying to degrade.
I originally found this on a different site, but that one seems to be gone now, so I will list a link to the one I found it on today. I have not read through the rest of the site, so if it is political in nature (it seems to be), I have no interest in or affiliation with whatever that may be.
http://www.lizmichael.com/outlaws.htm
Respects,
Hermano Roadrash
Hermano Roadrash.
One example of the term outlaw which has a totally different meaning is used in the racing world. Usually refers to dirt tracks.
Hello everyone,
I have been chewing on this for several days now. I have read all the postings in regard to OVMA and it would appear that no one has all the info. For the time being members of the Wilco Jackson chapter have decided not to display “Colors” until all the facts are known. However as a chapter we will continue to meet and ride in support of veterans and their families.
I will personally be present on the 25th with my colors and hope to see many others.
Having been a Chapter president and a 13yr member this whole thing has really hurt. If it weren’t for the comraderie and information I received as a result of my affiliation with the many fine members of OVMA. My life would be far less fullfilled. I can honestly say I owe my life to OVMA. This may sound over the top but anyone who Knows me knows it is true.
I sincerely hope that all this crap will be resolved and all those who have proudly displayed their affiliation on their backs will once again be allowed to fly their “COLORS” without impunity.
As a life member of the OVMA and a 22 year veteran, I am pissed. We have had no state meetings for months. and the chapters are droping like flys.
SOMEONE IS READING THE ABOVE AND TELLING THE GJMC
A MEMBER GOT BEAT DOWN LAST MONTH. NOT SAFE TO TALK. OVMA IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL.
Always remember to respect the colors and know that the Iron Pigs will always be armed and have the law on their side. Pick and choose your battles wisely and assume the sitting position when shots are fired. The law always has the outlaw outnumbered no matter what. The involved parties may have to let this one go. A battle against law enforcement is a losing one. I respect patch holders, outlaw or not, because of what it takes to earn it and also I dont want to get my ass kicked by a dozen of them either.
when a “cop” is off dutie and whereing “his ” 3 piece cut , what the hell is he doing armed and theatning other clubs /bikers for ….. this sounds like the cops cant find anything inteligent to do on there off time
, i dont care if ya gotta badge , ya shoudnt wear a badge and your cut at the same time , its like taking work to your home and home to your work , not a good policy not to mention
, maybe just maybe make your ” club”(spy ring ) a target , dumb dumb stupid stupid ,
hey every body all “iron pigs m,c ” ,untouchables m.c. and “iron crew m.c. ” as well as other leo m.c
are armed and ready to shoot 1%ers on site just for ridint there harleys