Only a few weeks of summer remain and just when it seemed the outlaw motorcycle club “news” would subside, along comes the recent shooting of a Hell’s Angels member by an off-duty police officer. The Sturgis shooting raised questions for me about who is this motorcycle club that confronted the HAMC? So I did some research on the motorcycle club.
The Iron Pigs M/C is a name unfamiliar with motorcyclists in Oregon because the club does not list any chapters in the state. Many of them are cops, though they dress as bikers and as off-duty law enforcement officers they are free to show tattoos their uniforms would otherwise hide.
The club has roots back to the late ‘80s (see footnote at bottom of page) and it has chapters in twenty-two states. The club is open to all law enforcement and firefighters who ride American-made V-Twin motorcycles.
From the Iron Pigs M/C web site it states:
The Seattle Chapter of the Iron Pigs Motorcycle Club really began back in 1995 in the Tri-Cities area of Washington State. A small group of cops and firefighters who rode together learned of the Wild Pigs Motorcycle Club. They chartered a chapter, the first, and what would be the only one in Washington State: The Kennewick Chapter.
They rode together for many years growing to approximately 10 members. In 1999 a cop from Seattle found out about the club while in Sturgis. When he returned to Seattle he contacted the Kennewick Chapter President, who eventually sponsored him for membership; he joined the Chapter in March of 2000, and after a period as a prospect, was patched in, September, 2000.
By this time there was a great deal of interest in the chapter and several more members, mostly from the Spokane area, joined and began to prospect. This brought the chapter membership to somewhere over 20.
In the first week of October, 2000 the proverbial shit hit the fan. A trademark dispute over the “Wild Pigs M/C” name and logo, which had apparently been underway since approximately 1993, came to a head, and two members, who had surreptitiously undertaken to acquire the rights to the trademark, were awarded the rights to the Wild Pigs M/C name and logo.
Unfortunately, those in charge at the time, who should have protected the trademark for the club, failed to do so, but in all fairness, you know what they say about hindsight.
At that point the club had grown to an estimated 80 chapters in the US and Canada, and 1600 or so members. Most of the chapters, and members chose to leave the Wild Pigs MC, most with a feeling of betrayal by two of our own, not to mention others who should have known better.
The members of the various chapters made an attempt to remain one club, but unfortunately some were not content to allow a peaceful process to proceed, while others had their own political agendas, which resulted in the split up of he membership.
The Washington chapter continued to have meetings, and found it difficult to make a decision one way or another. In the Spring of 2001 the Chapter voted on one item in particular, to try our best to stay together as a chapter.
In August, 2001 the chapter met for the annual Elk City run in Idaho. It was a great event as usual, and things were looking up. A meeting was held and the consensus was that the majority seemed inclined to join with the Iron Pigs M/C, but would also obtain information from the Renegade Pigs M/C, and the Warthogs M/C, and would meet for a vote in October.
In October, what would be the last meeting of the Wild Pigs M/C Washington was held in Ellensburg, WA. It became clear that there could be no majority vote, so the chapter members conducted a friendly split into those who wanted to join with the Renegade Pigs MC, and those who wanted to join with the Iron Pigs MC. A few others had already chosen to start their own thing in the Tri-Cities and are our brothers known as the Wild Reapers M/C, and one member joined our brothers and sisters in the Iron Warriors M/C.
Some of us former Wild Pigs from the Seattle area, who chose to join the Iron Pigs M/C, hooked up with two of our brothers from the Seattle PD who had begun the process to form an Iron Pigs M/C chapter in western Washingtion, and together formed the Seattle Chapter of the Iron Pigs M/C, the best damn M/C around.
We are looking forward to a very bright future. Within the various pages that you’ll find on this site you’ll see some references to some of the clubs as, “OWP,” this reference indicates that the particular chapter was founded by, Original Wild Pigs.
We’ll have to wait and see how all this play’s out. But one thing is clear in that the Iron Pigs off-duty policeman did break a law by having his gun inside the bar. South Dakota statute disallows anyone to carry a concealed weapon into a licensed business for alcoholic beverages.
UPDATE: My reference point on firearm topic is from the Seattle Times who are reporting that according to South Dakota law, people with concealed-weapons permits cannot carry firearms into bars. Police officers are exempt from this rule if they have written permission from the county sheriff, according to the law. However, a federal law enacted in 2004 supersedes the state law, allowing off-duty law-enforcement officers to carry weapons anywhere they choose, but it requires that the weapons handler is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
Update: September 5th – The Argus Leader is reporting that both men (McGuire (HAMC) and Smith (Iron Pigs)) are charged with alternative counts of aggravated and simple assault. Smith was also charged with perjury. In addition, misdemeanor gun charges were also brought against the four other fellow bikers with Smith (also part of the Iron Pigs): Scott Lazalde (Bellingham, WA); Dennis McCoy (Seattle, WA); Erik Pingel (Aurora, CO) and James Rector (Ferndale, WA).
Update: September 9th – The Seattle.pi is reporting that the perjury charge has been dismissed against Smith. The grand jury indicted Smith last month on charges of aggravated assault, perjury and illegal possession of a concealed weapon. Smith initially stated he was carrying his personal firearm, but the Seattle Police Department records contradicted him, showing that it was a department-issued gun. This was the evidence that was presented which resulted in the perjury charge.
Update: September 17th – Aggravated assault charges dropped. See HERE for more info.
Update: November 18, 2008 – Weapons charges dropped. See HERE for more info.
Update: February 25, 2009 – In a plea agreement Joseph McGuire (HAMC) pleads no contest to simple assault (versus aggravated assault) and was sentenced to one year in the Meade County Jail. According toRapid City Journal, McGuire’s sentence was suspended as long as he does not break the law. No fines were imposed, but he can not attend this years rally.
Update: May 7, 2010 – Detective Ronald Smith has filed a lawsuit against the city of Seattle and the Seattle Police Department. Even though all charges were dropped the suit alleges the department disparaged him and negligently provided false information that led to his indictment on a perjury charge. This was an embarrassment and the lawsuit contends his reputation was harmed.
The club’s philosophy page describes the group as “the good guys, on the job and off” but it appears they didn’t handled this situation in a lawful manner.
Seattle Police Motorcycle photo courtesy of Flickr Photographer Slightly North.
Footnote: The Iron Warriors site provides more insight on the Wild Pigs M/C which spun out to today’s Iron Pig club. Wild Pigs M/C was founded in June of 1987 in San Jose, California by a small posse of Deputy Sheriff’s within the Santa Clara County Sheriff’s Office. The motorcycle club was designed exclusively for active and/or retired law enforcement officers and firefighters with a select few associate members.
In 1994, two members of the San Jose chapter trademarked the club’s name and its logo for the purpose of franchising it. The action created a division of R and R enterprises and the Wild Pigs Motorcycle Club.
Northwest Harley Blog 
The Iron Pig officer did not violate state law. Federal law states an active or retired LEO can carry anywhere in the USA. This federal law states that state laws regarding the carrying of firearms are not applicable to LEOs. So, the state law regarding carrying where alcoholic beverages are sold, does not apply to Law Enforcement Officers.
[…] action created a division of R and R enterprises and the Wild Pigs Motorcycle Club. Article Link: Iron Pigs Ride The Northwest Northwest Harley Blog __________________ Livin Hard was easy when I was young and […]
@ six pack – Sturgis Police Chief Jim Bush has been quoted numerous times that Police officers are allowed to carry weapons when they are off-duty but no one can carry a concealed weapon into a business with a license to sell alcohol. There are also laws against carrying a firearm if you’ve been drinking. In addition the Seattle Times is reporting that according to South Dakota law, people with concealed-weapons permits cannot carry firearms into bars. Police officers are exempt from this rule if they have written permission from the county sheriff, according to the law. However, a federal law enacted in 2004 supersedes the state law, allowing off-duty law-enforcement officers to carry weapons anywhere they choose, but it requires that the weapons handler is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
These are my reference points.
[…] action created a division of R and R enterprises and the Wild Pigs Motorcycle Club. Article Link: Iron Pigs Ride The Northwest Northwest Harley Blog The author of this did a very nice job with one exception…The bolded statement of the ofc […]
I say this…the cops in the bar, should not have drawn on the Hells Angels…..did they have guns….? if a scuffle erupted and the tables were turned…..every hells angel would have been arrested in the bar. It is not fair that lady justice has a scale that is tipped to one side when police break the law. i fell the officer should have or should be charged with attempted murder with two shots fired. The iron pigs should not be allowed to wear a 3 piece patch. remember, the feds agree that a three piece patch is an OUTLAW symbol or patch. So if the police wear it…..they are entering a world that they dispise. Cant have it both ways. i say, if they do not charge this cop, with any crime, and he does no time….the hells angels should sue the seattle police, sturgis police the feds and any other law enforcement agency involved for unfair treatement and vioilation of rights in the constitution. Did everyone forget all americans have rights. also, that all this 911 legislation has inteferred with our civil liberties, as a nation and people. i hope the hells angels sues everyone that interferes with justice and i will donate money to their cause.
from …..biker from Seattle
Don’t know where you get the idea that (“THE FED’S) SAY THAT “ALL 3 piece patches are “OUTLAW” That’s bull shit. I ve been wearing my 3 piece patch with MC on the back for over 15 years and we have no problems out there.
We don’t claim any territory, and are not 1%er’s There’s no doubt in my mind the Angels started shit as they always do, and one got his ass handed to him. You “never” see one by himself out there starting shit
Then OBVIOUSLY you don’t know much about club history and how “it” works.
Latest news is the Cop in question in the shooting has been in trouble before with his department.
the law reads does not supersede state or county laws
The thing is, if you feel that your life is in imminent danger and you are able to defend yourself, you will make it happen. I would rather have twelve people judging me rather than having six people carrying me.
Panama Al
Mysteriously, day or two after the shooting a good number of the Iron Pigs websites went down. Or, would show the page but all the links inside to internal pages were dead.
I suppose that belies the, “our colors don’t run” statement on some of the remaining sites. They also state if you challenge one you challenge a national brotherhood. Yet, I didn’t hear about his “brothers” getting involved, even if they were blocked from getting to him, they could have drawn their guns too so I guess that leaves out that quote from their site as well. Cut one we all bleed is another on their site that was actually stolen from one of the big 4 clubs.
I can only say it so many times. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I’m betting it’s a duck.
They also say they will wear three piece patches and they will not ask for permission. A few sentences later they say they want to ride in peace. Um……..I know I’m new at this only been around bikes and bikers for about 34 years so I guess I’m a relative newcomer but……..don’t those two statements grossly contradict each other?
And lastly, I wonder how many chiefs of police, sheriffs or other higher ups in the departments have actually read the statements on this clubs website. I have to wonder if upper management and administration in these departments condone’s these officers engaging in behavior that could have the potential for stirring up trouble.
In the time I have been doing this I have never seen a 3 piece patch club hassle a 1 piece riding club or mc. In fact, if a club doesn’t have a bottom rocker which denotes claiming territory, I don’t think any of the other 3 piece patch clubs could care less.
Again, one has to ask why, when avoiding confrontation and problems of this type is so simple do these LEO clubs go out of their way to be so contrary and disagreable.
Sad day indeed.
Your either with us or against us.
Law & order v. Criminal element
I chose Law & order
I would have to ask if the shooter that was involved with this incident was given a Breathalyzer test to indeed verify that he was not under the influence of alcohol when he attempted to murder the victim. All of the “law and order” types here and elsewhere are calling this a clean shoot, but yet they are the ones doing the investigation….thats like having the Waffen SS soldiers investigate untimely deaths of Jews in concentration camps! Purely pathetic!
PIGS!!! Give me a break. The Pigs broke the law. How many times have we had a pig hide behind the badge. Brandish violence and violence will be returned. The bad cop involved has had run ins before and anyone supports him or them at this point is just as much a fool as they. Get your facts straight and don’t pipe off for something you know nothing about. They are a bunch of cowards and this all comes down to is bullies on the playground. I think there is an old adage about carrying a stick to a gun fight.
However, the SPD is notorious as being one of the countries most corrupt law agencies. Don’t argue look it up in public records. Check out how many police complaints that have been filed by local citizens for intimidation, threats and physical intimidation. When you become accustomed to running around an organization that doesn’t punish nor reprimands its officers then you will have lawless actions by stupid people, and there are alot in seattle and includes these dumb cops.
If you weren’t there don’t say anything. Period. The fact is is that this pig started it and then cowardly shot someone instead of walking the walk. If someone provokes you to the point of retaliation how is it that the victim continues to be penalized? Its like poking an animal with a stick until it finally responds. Prosecute the cop and make him do his time. Period. Semantics and personal interpretation of the law (regarding weapons etc…) are no place for this event. The fact is is that most cops are such terrible shots (less than 24% of shots fired by a cop hit the intended target-fact), because of the extent of the injuries of the biker, you know that the cop freaked out after feeling the pain of being punched. All cops when feeling intimidated, or that the only way to control a situation, is to draw their gun. Actions cause an immediate reaction. The bad cop’s actions speak volumes as to whom is responsible. Unfortunately as mentioned previously, cops investigating cops result in nothing more than a slap on the hand. Everyone knows that the bad pig will state merely that it was in self defense and unfortunately people tend to believe this crap when it comes to a bad, repeatedly warned for his actions, unlawful officer.
This all comes down to a bad cop who personally saw an opportunity to antagonize someone to the point of retaliation. What should trouble people is how much longer do we tolerate hoodlum cops that run around with only their interpretation of the law. Regrettably not until this bad cop is in jail, can he talk one on one with those he has troubled. Then the field will be level.
to “windy joe”
so..you’ve never seen a 3 piece patch club hassle a one piece r/c. guess your eyes haven’t been open in your 34 years.
one of the biggest “hassles” was against a Mom & Pop riding club that has chapters all over the country. they were “ordered” to remove their patch by a 1%club. they complied.
there are, of course, many, many more…just open your eyes.
your opinion on a statement that was on the “pigs” website about asking for permission….since when does Law Enforcement ASK anything from a criminal organization?????
and no, i am not a cop…but get real.
The Fed Law allows LEO’s to carry concealed but does not allow them to break state law. So if it is against the law to carry in a bar then the LEO’s would be in violation.
I wonder if any of the LEO’s were drinking? Of course they were, but can it be proved in a court?
It’s likely these charges were made to make them provide factual statements of the incident.
I too find it curious there was only one HA charged or mentioned in this case.
To Iasky,
re: thats like having the Waffen SS soldiers investigate untimely deaths of Jews in concentration camps
So, would you have the Hells Angels investigate this incident since they are the alleged agrieved party?
So Iasky,
You stated: thats like having the Waffen SS soldiers investigate untimely deaths of Jews in concentration camps
So, would you have the Hells Angels investigate the incident instead, since they are the alleged aggrieved party?
Just curious since you don’t like how it’s being handled now.
So whats the latest word on this situation? – I can’t find any recent articles.
@ Right/Wrong – as of September 5th: The Argus Leader (http://www.argusleader.com) is reporting that both men (McGuire (HAMC) and Smith (Iron Pigs)) are charged with alternative counts of aggravated and simple assault. Smith was also charged with perjury. In addition, misdemeanor gun charges were also brought against the four other fellow bikers with Smith (also part of the Iron Pigs): Scott Lazalde (Bellingham, WA); Dennis McCoy (Seattle, WA); Erik Pingel (Aurora, CO) and James Rector (Ferndale, WA).
I’ve updated the 3 posts on this topic.
-mac
Aren’t there enough wannabes nowadays……..what in God’s name are the pigs using a 3 piece patch for????
Smith’s perjury charge was dropped due to the weapon was his and not department issued. The other charges against Smith’s friends were dropped too.
Only the charges of assault are pending against Smith and McGuire.
@ JC – thanks for the comment. I saw that and have updated the various posts.
Mac
To: Rainman
You said. “Aren’t there enough wannabes nowadays……..what in God’s name are the pigs using a 3 piece patch for????”
Not sure what you are trying to say here. One of the FIRST three piece patch clubs that was formed back in 1946 allows (and has had) law enforcement officers in their ranks.
Caesar
KPMC
UPDATE:
Seattle officer’s felony assault charge in Hells Angel shooting is dismissed by S.D. prosecutors.
Prosecutors in South Dakota have dismissed a second felony charge against a Seattle police detective who shot a member of the Hells Angels motorcycle club last month during a bar fight.
By Jennifer Sullivan
Seattle Times staff reporter
Prosecutors in South Dakota have dismissed a felony assault charge against a Seattle police detective who shot a member of the Hells Angels motorcycle club last month during a bar fight.
Meade County State Attorney Jesse Sondreal said Monday that an aggravated-assault charge against Detective Ron Smith has been dropped because “the investigation that I have reviewed indicates he was assaulted and it was premeditated.”
Earlier this month, Sondreal dropped a felony perjury charge against Smith in connection with the same incident.
Smith still faces a misdemeanor charge stemming from the shooting of Joseph McGuire on Aug. 9.
Smith said he shot McGuire after McGuire and other members of the Hells Angels jumped him inside the Loud American Roadhouse during the annual Sturgis, S.D., Motorcycle Rally. Smith attended the rally as a member of the Iron Pigs, a motorcycle club made up of law-enforcement officers and firefighters.
In addition to the aggravated-assault and perjury charges, Smith was charged with a misdemeanor count of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.
“The law-enforcement investigation, submitted to this office, establishes that Ron Smith was defending himself from a violent premeditated attack and he responded in a manner which was neither excessive nor unreasonable under the circumstances,” Sondreal said in a news release Monday afternoon.
Sondreal said he “assumes” that Smith was targeted because he belongs to the Iron Pigs. Sondreal said the Hells Angels could have attacked Smith because he and other Iron Pigs were dressed in clothing featuring the Iron Pigs logo.
Sondreal said that Smith and other Iron Pigs cooperated fully with authorities and testified before a grand jury impaneled to determine whether charges would be filed in the case.
“Mr. McGuire and his group attempted to flee the scene [after the shooting] and wouldn’t cooperate and wouldn’t testify before the grand jury. They all invoked their right to remain silent,” Sondreal said.
Were any of you actually there? Do yo uknow what is like like to run into crimainals off duty that you may have arrested before? I’m off the job now. You bitches that complain about the police from the safety from your home on the internet are a bunch of cowards. If you didn’t have the police and law to protect you, you wouldn’t last very long. The only reason you are alive is because it is illeagal to kill you and the police are there to protect you no matter how much you hate them.
@ Doc – Police officers are the only professionals mandated by society to use discretionary coercive physical force as a necessary component of fulfilling their duty to maintain public safety and uphold the law.
Det. Smith has some anger issues which some have been reported on this blog. If community policing is to prevail as an effective and credible style of law enforcement, the legitimate use of competent police authority will continue to be an important is not vital issue.
I’m no “hater”. I was not there nor have I stated that I was. However, it’s my opinion that this was NOT a legitimate use of “police authority” and should have not been treated as such.
Mac
To Mac,
Had you been on the floor with a broken nose, broken cheekbone with boots and fists coming at you from all sides, what would you have done?
This was not a use of police authority as you call it – legitimate or otherwise. It was someone protecting themselves from felonious assault. Period.
In his place, I would DO and USE any tool at my disposal to protect myself. Fair fights are for the ring.
@ Retired LE – appreciate your comment and you make a fair “flight or fight” point. It’s my understanding LEO’s are well trained for these type of incidents so cooler heads should/can prevail.
Doesn’t the code of conduct address or at least suggest that a LEO will never employ unnecessary force or violence and will use only such force in the discharge of duty as is reasonable in all circumstances.
I believe there is a COC reference for even private life behavior which LEO’s will behave in a manner that does not bring discredit to their agencies or themselves. A LEO’s character and conduct while off duty must always be exemplary, thus maintaining a position of respect in the community in which they live and serve. The officer’s personal behavior must be beyond reproach. Smith wasn’t in his Seattle community, but it’s good guidance to follow in any community, right?
Clearly I wasn’t there and doing “arm chair” analysis of events or what passes the principle of reasonableness is hard to determine.
The disappoining part of this from my vantage is that the general public can not tell a HAMC patch from a Hog Chapter patch. They don’t know a 1% biker from 1% milk. The average Joe knows very little of bikers, yet still votes, will read about this incident and form opinions on many of us who look similar and pass legislation and/or put in place laws that will more than likely harm the motorcycle industry.
Mac
Mac: It’s my understanding LEO’s are well trained for these types of incidents so cooler heads should/can prevail.
Retired LE: You are correct, they are trained. Even with all that training, we frequently read about cops being killed in the line of duty. Just this month, Washington state lost two LEO’s to murder. Sometimes training isn’t enough.
Mac: Doesn’t the code of conduct address or at least suggest that a LEO will never employ unnecessary force or violence and will use only such force in the discharge of duty as is reasonable in all circumstances.
Retired LE: Yes it does, however state and federal law allows you to use deadly force to prevent serious physical injury or death to yourself or another.
Mac: I believe there is a COC reference for even private life behavior which LEO’s will behave in a manner that does not bring discredit to their agencies or themselves. A LEO’s character and conduct while off duty must always be exemplary, thus maintaining a position of respect in the community in which they live and serve. The officer’s personal behavior must be beyond reproach. Smith wasn’t in his Seattle community, but it’s good guidance to follow in any community, right?
Retired LE: You are once again correct. LEO’s are held to a higher standard and usually are dealt with more harshly than the average citizen if they violate their oath – whether on duty or off. I personally know of offices who were fired for violations that would have gotten the average citizen a slap on the wrist if that.
Mac: Clearly I wasn’t there and doing “arm chair” analysis of events or what passes the principle of reasonableness is hard to determine.
Retired LE: All we can do is sift through the information that is available and come to our own conclusions.
Mac: The disappointing part of this from my vantage is that the general public can not tell a HAMC patch from a Hog Chapter patch. They don’t know a 1% biker from 1% milk. The average Joe knows very little of bikers, yet still votes, will read about this incident and form opinions on many of us who look similar and pass legislation and/or put in place laws that will more than likely harm the motorcycle industry.
Retired LE: Therein lies the danger. There is a big difference between a HAMC patch and your local HOG patch. You cross one and you might get a glare, you cross the other and you may end up in the hospital. Secondly, that is what organizations such as ABATE and MRO’s in general have in part been created to do; To hopefully educate, not only the voting public, but our legislators as well.
I don’t think ANYONE should ask ANYONE “permission” to wear a three piece patch. What the hell, at some point will we have to ask someone if we can wear a particular t-shirt? This crap is going way too far. People in this country can wear what the hell they want to, whether it be the Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, Bandidos, or the grandmothers at chruch. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT OTHERS WEAR, so get over it. Either shut the hell up and stop running your mouths or do something about it!
Retired Police,
I agree with you. The one percenters believe the three piece patch is their invention. They will also use the argument that you wouldn’t want to wear a red kerchief in a Crip gang’s neighborhood, or a blue one in a Bloods area. A favorite when dealing with LE Clubs is the example that a citizen shouldn’t wear a cop uniform and end up looking like a cop. The list goes on.
Back to the three piece. One of the earliest three piece patch clubs out there was formed way before most of the one percenter clubs came on the scene. The Boozefighters M/C have been around since 1946, they aren’t a one percenter club (as clearly stated on their website) and they allow (and have had) law enforcement types in their ranks.
Update:
November 17, 2008
By KOMO Staff
STURGIS, S.D. — The last remaining weapons charges against two Seattle police detectives involved in a shooting here last August during a fight between two motorcycle gangs have been dismissed.
Judge Warren Johnson ruled Monday that Ronald Smith and Dennis McCoy were within the law when they were carrying their weapons outside of their home state, said Rich O’Neill with the Seattle Police Officers’ Guild.
Prosecutors say Hells Angels members started a bar fight that led to the Aug. 9 shooting during the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
An investigation showed the Hells Angels “instigated the assault” in a fight with the Iron Pigs, another motorcycle club, at the Loud American Roadhouse in Sturgis, Meade County State’s Attorney Jesse Sondreal said in an e-mail.
Witnesses and authorities have said the two clubs got into a fight just before the shooting.
The Iron Pigs, a national motorcycle club, is composed of police and firefighters.
Seattle police Detective Ronald Smith, an Iron Pigs member, was accused of shooting Hells Angel member Joseph Patrick McGuire, 33, who was hospitalized.
Smith, 43, has said he had been attacked and that he fired in self-defense. An investigation backed up Smith’s claim and the assault charges were dropped in September.
Smith and McCoy were among three others at the incident who were also charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit or an alternative of failing to abide by a permit of a reciprocal state in the incident.
But in Monday’s ruling, Johnson said the Law Enforcement Officer’s Safety Act allows officers to carry their weapons in all 50 states.
@ Retired LE – thanks for the comment update. I saw the news and have added this to the various posts to reflect the outcome.
I still believe that police in our society are given an enormous amount of authority and power over everyday citizens. I believe that with this power and authority ought to come a large degree of prudence and composure when dealing with these types of situations.
Regardless of how I’m personally bothered by this situation, I support and respect that the judge has the final word.
I agree with most of what you say. You can ad responsibility and accountability as well.
I gotta fall back though on a couple of old adages that still apply when the crap hits the fan. Some might consider them harsh. Survivors don’t.
1. Fair fights are for the ring.
2. I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
Trigger control and focusing on your front sight are pretty good too.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. So what are a bunch of law abiding do goodies doing in a potential volatile situation. What in the world are you doing in a bar with a bunch of HA’s. You guys are hypocrites. You want to be the Wild Hogs swingin’ dick tough biker guys but you pull your guns that no one else can lawfully carry when the shit goes down and you hide behind your badges.
I agree, I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. But what chance in hell does a citizen have when he shoots anyone. The ramifications to him are a whole lot more than administrative leave.
The hypocricy just grows and grows.
There is no such thing as a fair fight.
HD – You are correct.
So what are a bunch of law abiding do goodies doing in a potential volatile situation.
HD – They were in a bar. Why does that have to be a potentially volatile situation? The only reason it became so is because the HA’s came in spoiling for a fight. They got one.
What in the world are you doing in a bar with a bunch of HA’s.
HD – My understanding is the Iron Pigs were in that establishment on a regular basis for the entire week. The HA’s came in on that Friday night, clearly spoiling for a fight. They posted members at the exits and started the crap. The bar owner saw what was coming down and called the Law – which explains why they were on scene so fast.
You guys are hypocrites. You want to be the Wild Hogs swingin’ dick tough biker guys but you pull your guns that no one else can lawfully carry when the shit goes down and you hide behind your badges.
HD – No ‘shit’ had to go down if the HA’s had behaved themselves. They chose not to. They started pushing their weight around and got bit. Hard.
HD – The cop who shot the HA didn’t have time to pull his badge and hopefully diffuse the situation. Had he had time to do so, the HA’s might have realized they were dealing with someone other than the average citizen who they like to push around. They lost. Maybe they learned something.
I agree, I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. But what chance in hell does a citizen have when he shoots anyone.
HD – There are thousands of incidents every year where the average law abiding (armed) citizen responds appropriately against deadly force.
The ramifications to him are a whole lot more than administrative leave.
HD – That’s why you have judges and juries.
The hypocricy just grows and grows.
HD – No, just a leveling of the playing field. The bullies met their match this time is all. Maybe they will check out their intended victim(s) a bit closer next time.
Update from the Bellingham Herald.
Looks like the Customs agents were cleared as well.
Charges dropped against Whatcom County border agents involved in biker fight
ISABELLE DILLS – THE BELLINGHAM HERALD
Thursday, November 20, 2008
Charges have been dropped against two U.S. Customs agents from Whatcom County accused of carrying concealed weapons without permits during an August altercation at the Sturgis motorcycle rally in South Dakota.
Scott Lazalde of Bellingham and James Rector of Ferndale had been charged with carrying a concealed pistol without a permit and an alternative count of failure to abide by a permit of a reciprocal state, according to Meade County, S.D., authorities.
Both men are members of the Iron Pigs Motorcycle Club, which is made up of law enforcement officers and firefighters. Lazalde and Rector work for the Blaine sector of U.S. Customs and Border Protection.
The altercation occurred Aug. 9 at the Loud American Roadhouse during the annual motorcycle rally. Hells Angel biker Joseph McGuire, 33, of Imperial Beach, Calif., was shot and injured by Ronald Smith of Seattle, 43, a vacationing off-duty Seattle police detective, authorities said.
Calls to Meade County, S.D., State Attorney Jesse Sondreal who is handling the case, and Smith’s attorney, Robert Van Norman, were not returned Thursday, Nov. 20.
However, The Seattle Times reported that an aggravated assault charge against Smith was dropped after it was determined he was acting in self-defense.
Also, a Meade County judge ruled that the officers, including Lazalde and Rector, were protected under a federal law that allows off-duty law-enforcement officers to carry weapons anywhere they want as long as they are not under the influence of drugs or alcohol, according to The Seattle Times.
Retired LE I’ve been reading your post and counter-post very well put I’m glad to see there are some savy old guys out there sticking up for us.
I never thought an organized crime organzation that has commited murder, rape, extortion, and drug dealing would recieve so much pitty and support. And if the genral public knew that part of the prospect process for a Hells Angel is to assault an LEO.
They wouldn’t speak with so much animosity in their voice, if the genral public think they can due our jobs better, or jobs are so easy or we’re so crucid. I invite them to pick up an appilcation at their local sheriffs department, city police or state agency.
Good job thanks
I never thought an organized crime organzation that has commited murder, rape, extortion, and drug dealing would recieve so much pitty and support and that’s just the pigs we are talking about here !!!!!!!!!!!! spell check. lmao at bobocop
Hay BorderCop
Bordercop
Retired LE I’ve been reading your post and counter-post very well put I’m glad to see there are some savy old guys out there sticking up for us.
I can’t believe the shit that spuse out of the mouths of any cop lover. Bikers are the last reminant of (naming the four biggest ones) trus Americans everyone knows that any cop is an over paid coward that hides behind its badge. You know the one, that us American citizens gave you fucks. Guess what assholes the people of this country are waking up and have decided to protect them selves against cowards like you. If you forgot its our right to defend our sevles even against you little piglets. Know why your called pigs I’ll tell ya it’s because pigs eat their own shit and sleep in it. Maybe that coward should have stayed where he belonged witht he other cowards he rides with. Guess what assholes you don’t have a right to shoot first, kill ,then get off. If you gonna fuck with the big boys then act like a man. By the way I was there the piglet started the whole thing by getting in the face of the H.A. the guy told him he was drunk and walk the cop pushed him and got his ass beat then girlied uped and pulled agun and shot him. If its that easy to be a piglet to shoot unarmed citizens of this country in a bar knowing that the citizen is not caring a gun. The point here is I’ll keep my right to bare arms and protect myself since the cops always shoot the wrong person and are never there till its to late anyway. get real piglet your all awaste of tax payers money thats right awaste.
Well, you sure told all them LEO’s out there with THAT well written comment… Good job….
Was that English? Another fine example of the public education system.