Flying Pigs
“When pigs fly”…is an idiom or a popular saying used to indicate that something will never happen. So, when will the “Law Enforcement” spin stop on this Sturgis shooting? No time soon it would seem…
The Seattle Times is reporting that the off-duty police officer who shot Hells Angel member Joseph Patrick McGuire (33, of Imperial Beach, Ca.) at the Loud American Roadhouse in Sturgis was forced to open fire after being attacked and pinned to the floor by up to three members of the outlaw motorcycle gang.
The Rapid City Journal identified the Seattle police officer as Ronald Smith (43, of Seattle, WA). He is assigned to the departments pawnshop unit. In grand-jury investigation statements he said:
The detective said one Hells Angel member “got in my face” and began an argument. “I was cold-cocked on the left side of my face by at least one, if not three, Hells Angels,”…”I woke up on the ground pinned against a bar stool by a Hells Angel in a red bandanna,”…”I was receiving fists and feet from the top during this.”… “I tried to wriggle free, but didn’t have any leverage.”…”The Hells Angel in the bandanna tried to grab my gun just as another man was choking me… “I then pulled the handgun from my hip and opened fire.”
According to the newspaper, 25 people testified during the seven-hour court hearing. No arrests have been made and the investigation could continue until the grand jury reconvenes on Aug. 27th.
Not everything is as tranquil as they would want us to believe…new information has been released on the detective involved in the Sturgis shooting has twice been investigated by the department of Office of Professional Accountability, a civilian police-oversight group, during his 15 years on the force. Both complaints were confirmed by the group. One investigation stemmed from a verbal argument he got into with a Seahawk fan while working an off-duty assignment at Qwest Field in 2004. He also got into an argument inside a Pierce County restaurant in 2005 with a restaurant employee who was taunting and threatening him and his then-fiancée. He received a two-day suspension for the incident with the Seahawk fan and a written reprimand for the other incident.
I’ve received a number of questions about whether it was legal for Smith to have a gun on him in the Loud American Roadhouse, because he was off duty at the time. According to South Dakota law, people with concealed-weapons permits cannot carry firearms into bars. Police officers are exempt from this rule if they have written permission from the county sheriff, according to the law. However, the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (a federal law) enacted in 2004 supersedes the state law, allowing off-duty law-enforcement officers to carry weapons anywhere they choose, but it requires that the weapons handler not be under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
So let the spin continue as nothing has been reported about sobriety tests conducted after the shooting…
Update: August 14th – Seattle PI is reporting that Hells Angel member Joseph Patrick McGuire was arrested Jan. 18, 2007, as part of an investigation by the Drug Enforcement Administration and the San Diego Police Department. Police served warrants on two San Diego-area homes that belonged to the president of the Hells Angels’ local chapter. McGuire is the chapter treasurer and was arrested at one of the homes in Pacific Beach, Calif. Police seized a pound and a half of marijuana, in addition to hydrocodone and oxycodone pills, and $5,000 in cash. The San Diego chapter president and vice president were charged in separate cases in the investigation. McGuire was released on bond and scheduled for a pre-trial hearing Aug 20 in San Diego County Superior Court, with his trial set for September. He was charged with possession of marijuana for sale and two counts of illegal possession of narcotics.
Update: September 5th - The Argus Leader is reporting that both men (McGuire (HAMC) and Smith (Iron Pigs)) are charged with alternative counts of aggravated and simple assault. Smith was also charged with perjury. In addition, misdemeanor gun charges were also brought against the four other fellow bikers with Smith (also part of the Iron Pigs): Scott Lazalde (Bellingham, WA); Dennis McCoy (Seattle, WA); Erik Pingel (Aurora, CO) and James Rector (Ferndale, WA).
Update: September 9th – The Seattle.pi is reporting that the perjury charge has been dismissed against Smith. The grand jury indicted Smith last month on charges of aggravated assault, perjury and illegal possession of a concealed weapon. Smith initially stated he was carrying his personal firearm, but the Seattle Police Department records contradicted him, showing that it was a department-issued gun. This was the evidence that was presented which resulted in the perjury charge.
Update: September 17th – Aggravated assault charges dropped. See HERE for more info.
Update: November 18, 2008 – All weapons charges dropped. See HERE for more info.
Update: February 25, 2009 – In a plea agreement Joseph McGuire (HAMC) pleads no contest to simple assault (versus aggravated assault) and was sentenced to one year in the Meade County Jail. According to Rapid City Journal, McGuire’s sentence was suspended as long as he does not break the law. No fines were imposed, but he can not attend this years rally.
Photo courtesy Flickr.
[...] continue as nothing has been reported about sobriety tests conducted after the shooting Link: When Iron Pigs Fly Northwest Harley Blog __________________ Livin Hard was easy when I was young and [...]
“The detective said one Hells Angel member “got in my face” and began an argument. ”
Interesting, an argument. It was always my belief that are argument required to people to be involved. It does not say that the biker came up and started yelling, it says that he started an argument which the off duty officer must have engaged in with him.
Could this entire incident have been avoided with a more professional attitude on the part of the off duty officer? I have never known police officers to argue while on the job, They don’t engage people that way. In fact, they are taught in the acadamy how to control situations so that the do not become an argument or physical confrontation.
Instead of arguing, could the officer and his buddies excused themselves saying they don’t want any trouble and leaving? This is something I believe 90% of the police officers I have ever known would have done.
Or, is it possible that just enough alcohol had been consumed by the officers, and they felt compelled to uphold the words on their website about, “these colors don’t run” and, “challenge on is to challenge a national brotherhood” and, Cut one we all bleed”?
That attitude publicly displayed on their website, combined with the fact the officer admits to have been drinking, and the fact that the officer has had some attitude problems in the past that resulted in action by his department leads one to believe we may not be getting the full or true story here. And, if in fact he was tested for his BAC, what was it? Why is that not being disclosed if in fact he was not “impared”?
Also, it was only a matter of days back in 02 before the video tapes from Laughlin were released when the shooting took place at the River Run. People keep claiming there is a video tape, but nobody is making it public.
And one has to ask why a group of police officers go out of their way to seem so challenging to 1%ers on their website, but then go out of their way to ride the same bikes, dress the same and use the same slogans.
I think there is more to this story we may never know.
What ever happened to, “and justice for all”?
@ Joe – well put. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
In the most recent Seattle PI article (”Officer testifies…”) it is affirmed that “Iron Pig Smith” – the shooter in this incident – did undergo sobriety tests after being detained; and in the article he – for the first time since media coverage started – affirm he’d been drinking (alcohol) that night but “was not drunk”.
He now also offers that his six page testimony in an 80,000 page Hells Angels prosecution (Washington NOMADS) may have marked / singled him out by the HAMC that night in Sturgis…a level of participation in that case the Washington prosecutor offers was so minimal as to be forgettable, with the two Angels contacted by Iron Pig Smith later becoming and informant and the other drummed out of the club.
Hardly the basis for hunting Iron Pig Smith up at Sturgis – and if so, why would he have exposed himself to such a possibilty as a major HA run to begin with.
This is simply one dumb story about one less than stellar cop wearing wanna-be billy-bad-ass colors.
Everyone is quick to judge, especially the posers who want to stick up for an outlaw club that they could never get into. If that cop walked out of the bar, saw your mom, daughter, or sister getting raped or mugged and shot the guys he would be a hero, and noone would be questioning why he had his gun on him in a bar. Thank God he did.
aint it illeagal .(probly in 50 states ) to carry a fire arm into a bar,tavern or pub . and secondly a post office , or even a court house, thats so stupid , than god he did have a gun wtf , its illeagal
harleycop, If cops want to wear a three piece patch, why can’t they or won’t they get their club sanctioned like every single other 3 piece patch club in America? Are they to good to follow the rules?
If you want to start a club, you go to your local dominant club who likely sits on the COC and ask permission. You get your colors and design approved and you go from there. IPMC doesn’t want to follow this 50 year tradition. In fact, on their website’s they blatantly thumb their nose at this tradition by stating they wont’ ask permission. Hmmmm, so they want to be a part of something but they are to good for it. interesting concept. Why couldn’t they make it a two piece patch or even a one piece patch if they truly wanted to live in peace as they say? Right there they had a choice to be non confrontational but don’t.
Then they go on to state on their website, slogans and comments that are made and found either outright or similar on other three piece patch clubs websites.
so, let me get this straight. they want to ride only american motorcycles like the three piece clubs, they want to have the same patches as the three piece clubs, they want to use the same slogans and attend the same functions as the three piece clubs, but they won’t play by the same rules that every other three piece club plays by.
And they expect to ride in peace, like I said, interesting concept.
Oh, and before you go and ask me who put the dominant clubs in charge of things, we did, the other clubs and independents that have followed those rules for decades upon decades because they work.
back in the 60s you cops did nothing when little club A picked a guy off riding his japanese bike cross country. You just came down on the biggest club you could find in the area. It was the big clubs forming the COC’s and policing our own is the reason a solo rider can go cross country unharassed these days. Well, unharassed by bikers, Law enforcement is a different story isn’t it. You know, On a 14 state trip once a few years ago I got pulled over no less than 5 times in various states, not one single citation issued, just harassment about who am I, where am I going, blah blah blah. Yea, you guys will be happy when it is a Papers please state I’m thinking.
Oh wait, I forgot, your the good guys. Funny, I always thought the good guys followed the rules not make up new ones when they didn’t like the ones already in place.
Windy Joe: Have my club sanctioned? Go to the area’s dominant club (aka: HA, Bandito, etc.)? Yea, right. I’ll get right on that. My club colors (and no, I’m not with IPMC) were designed and approved by those with whom I choose to associate. I will not have some 1% club tell me what I can or can not do in my own country.
How did clubs get started? It was a loose knit organization of individuals who chose to spend their time with others who held their same opinions and beliefs. Amazingly enough, that’s who I choose to spend my time on my bike with. My club represents my values and beliefs, just like any other club, outlaw or not. If the outlaw clubs decide they don’t like my expression of who I am, then too bad. My vest, just like any other vest, is an expression of who I am. I don’t hide it, anyone is free to come view it and learn about me.
Now, if you or anyone else feels they need to approach me and offer an opinion about my affiliation, then go right ahead. Feel free to tell me your issues then move on. Now, if anyone feels they need to do more than talk to me, then don’t be suprised when I defend myself.
oops, I misspelled Bandido. I must have been thinking of dorito.
Riden50
“My club represents my values and beliefs, just like any other club, outlaw or not.”
You know, As an ABATE officer I have lots of times tried to get the Blue Knights or other LEO clubs to join an particpate in the struggle for biker rights.
I have been told by every one of these groups that it is illegal for them to join such a group, because as officers they are prohibited from association with felons, and that groups like ABATE have felons in it.
So tell me, what then were these patch officers doing in a place like Sturgis rubbing elbows with so many felons?
I have no problem with law enforcement clubs riding and doing their own thing. It is when they step through that door, and leave the venue of doing their own thing and start attending events for 1% events or traditional biker events that there is a problem. You have to know your not welcome there as a group that does not follow the rules. When I know for what ever reason I’m not welcome somewhere I don’t go. I do not play the “I’m a free American I can do as I please card”, thats just looking for trouble. I don’t go trying to force the issue by showing up and calling it a good time.
Just because we can as free Americans do certain things does not always mean it is wise to do so.
Personally, I have always been an independent. Being in a REAl club takes a lot of committment that my chosen life path just can’t make. I’m not sure why, if you don’t want to go through the process of getting your club sanctioned that you need patches to begin with. Make you feel better about yourselves? Why not a one piece patch, or, maybe even a two piece patch. Why if you truly want to be recognized as the good guys do you go out of your way to look like something your not. You could have your one piece or two piece and attend events that are held by Riding Clubs etc that don’t mix with the other folks that your trying to hold youself separate from.
Putting on a three piece patch that is not sanctioned as is traditional and going to traditional or 1% venues is just blatantly looking for trouble. And although you might not agree with me, I’m sure your chief of police or sheriff would.
Respects,
WJ
First of all I would like to express my appreciation that those posting on this forum are keeping things respectful.
WindyJoe – The ONLY reason that LEMCs do not get “sanctioned” like other traditional 3-piece clubs are that the COC’s, etc. are run by 1% clubs. Imagine for once how it would look to the general public if they found out that a cop was a member of an organization that had to be “sanctioned” by a (at least to the general public) a organized crime group (Bandidos, HA’s, Outlaws, etc.). This is simply not an option for an LEO. The head of my agency knows my club’s position and has no problem with it.
As LEO’s we can explain going to biker events that are not “hosted” by the 1%’s. I have gone to many events locally and supported many charities that many of the clubs in my area have hosted – as long as they weren’t officially being hosted by the Bandidos. Yes, I have supported an ABATE event in the past.
Once, our chapter collected money and had it delivered to a good cause benefit that was hosted by the local Bandidos (not for one of their own) because it was a good cause. We didn’t go in person because it was a Bandido event.
I have never heard of anyone having a problem with us going to a “traditional biker event” that was not hosted by a 1% club. As far as I know we DON’T go to 1% events. We have been to events that they have also attended and have remained mutually respectful and separate. Going to Sturgis is no different than going to any other “biker” event. If I am at my local bar and a known criminal shows up I don’t have to leave. Doesn’t mean I have to go over there and visit with him for awhile… We just stay apart from each other.
Our society is full of people who are judgmental and stereotype others. It makes it easy to understand complicated issues when this is done. Isn’t the right thing to do but that is just how people are.
Cops are a segment of society that is made up of persons from many different backgrounds and segments. They have many different hobbies and activities and lifestyles they enjoy.
Why is it so hard to understand that some of us can enjoy the same benefits of brotherhood that other clubs enjoy or enjoy being a “biker” as you yourself enjoy?
We are different in that we can’t or don’t want to be associated with 1%’s in any way. That is all that makes us different from any other non-1% club. In my experience the 1%ers don’t want anything to do with us. Even if a cop did want to associate with them – they wouldn’t allow it!
As far as being harrassed by cops because you are a biker. Please chalk that up to the minority of cops who are small minded and have no idea. From the members of my organization you will be treated with the same respect we would give any other person we have contact with. But, we will approach you with an understanding that just because you are a biker or a club member doesn’t mean you are a crook. I, personally, would end up talking about your bike more than the traffic ticket.
I agree with WindyJoe, and think he expresses his views well. I also happen to agree with him all the way. I was at sturgis this year. I like to ride. I am in a club.
As for this patch argument… the part that stands out for me the most is quite simple. If you are sworn to protect and serve, then why do you want to start trouble when logic says your actions will do just that? It defies logic that anyone can justify this… but here we are and I am seeing as above those trying to do just that.
Lame.
Very lame.
WindyJoe,
So now police officers who ride must ask at the door if this place may have any known felons inside? Seems a bit much to me.
Also I can assure you that I will never ask a 1% club if I can wear anything! This is, at least last time I checked, a free county. As far as you getting pulled over so many times just show some proof. I bet your making most of that up.
LEMC members are NOT the ones attempting to start trouble. We just want to be left alone. If the 1%rs leave us alone then there is no trouble. Our being somewhere having a good time and leaving everyone else alone is not causing trouble. The bar staff at the incident in Sturgis said that the Iron Pigs had been in the bar for several nights prior to the incident and had just appeared to be another group relaxing and having fun. So, for several days there is no problem and an HA comes along and then there was one. Who caused the problem? Hmmmm… let me think… the HA.
A 1%r coming over to me an hassling me about what I am wearing is causing trouble. The aggressor’s actions are the issue. NOT mine when I am minding my own business. He could just as easily come over and be polite like the rest of the bikers to whom I speak.
While I don’t agree that a 1% club legally has any right to determine who can wear what on their back I understand that they have that belief. I can even respect others justifying their belief that the 1%s can do so because they don’t want to be bullied. If the 1%s can get away with ordering around other people who have should have an equal right in this country to wear what they want… then so be it.
But, I am an individual who goes to work every week to protect the rights of all the people in my area and stand up to bullies. Don’t expect cops to back down from bullies. The belief that 1%rs can dictate who can wear what is the action of a bully. That is how this “right” of theirs began. A turf war. Well, we aren’t a threat to the internal battles between Bandidos, Mongols, Outlaws, Hell’s Angels, etc. Sorry, we don’t participate. Since we aren’t interested in what flavor of 1%r club is in our area I don’t understand why they care about us.
Let me state that I don’t believe all 1%rs are bullies. I have been to many benefits which were not 1% sponsored, but, had 1%rs attending. On several occasions I was in a line with them next to me. We greeted each other respectfully, shook hands, and turned back to our companions. There was no problem. We knew who they were. They knew who we were. There was mutual respect. But, obviously, not all are the same.
I am not JUSTIFYING my being in a club or wearing a patch. I am attempting to provide understanding to persons who have only one perspective on an issue. Some people seem to think that all cops are the same. That is no different than saying all bikers are the same.
Mark, thanks for the level headed response, and, I don’t mean to be argumentative however…..
“Why is it so hard to understand that some of us can enjoy the same benefits of brotherhood that other clubs enjoy or enjoy being a “biker” as you yourself enjoy?”
It’s not hard at all, if you want a club, wear a one piece or two piece patch, you still have your club and you are under the rader of the 1%ers. Simple.
”
Imagine for once how it would look to the general public if they found out that a cop was a member of an organization that had to be “sanctioned” by a (at least to the general public) a organized crime group (Bandidos, HA’s, Outlaws, etc.)”
You can call the what you like, we call them Mototcycle clubs. Not every member is a criminal. In fact, not all cops are abusive ass’s either.
LEOHarley, yea, good attitude. Pretty much the same one displayed on the Iron Pigs website. Nice. Well, hey, we know where that attitude lead to huh? I want you to remember that attitude next time your dealing with someone that doesn’t care to follow your long established rules ok, and they are giving you the same attitude back.
Oh, wait, your the one’s with the guns and badges, thats right, I see how it words now. I’m not gonna blah blah blah. Free country blah blah blah.
Either you don’t get it, or you just refuse to get it.
Once last time, I’m wondering how many of those in the upper ranks and leadership of these departments would approve of the Iron Pigs confrontational and inflamitory manner on their web pages.
Some on this forum have asked what the public would think about cops being in clubs that had to be sanctioned by 1%ers. Hmmmm, I’m thinking they would think the same thing about them as they do the ones that try so hard to look like, talk like, sound like 1%ers anyway.
People should be what they are and not try to hard to pretend they are something else. I’m thinking these LEO clubs could enjoy their brotherhood and their motorcycling without the three piece patches. There is no reason for them except to be inflamatory to the 1%ers and not one LEO response on here yet has had the guts to just admit it.
Pretty sad examples of leadership and being the good guys.
Just one mans opinion.
WJ
Mark, common, you seem pretty ok and level headed. Would you leave me alone if i dressed up like a cop and started directing traffic at a big jam up, even if I was doing a good job you would arrest me. Period.
You say you want to be left alone, again, if you truly wanted to be left alone, you would wear a one piece or two piece patch. Why LEO clubs that wear a 3 piece patch want, is to be left alone while being IN THEIR face as far as the 1%ers go. Wearing an unsanctioned 3 piece patch in an area they claim as their territory and expecting to be left alone is like visiting my house uninvited and urninating on my carpet and being expected to be left alone. It’s just not going to happen. There is the way you would like things to be in the world, and then there is reality. What is so hard about accepting reality, and having your clubs with one or two less pieces of material on the back.
HA comes along and then there was one. Who caused the problem? Hmmmm… let me think… the HA. Surprise, they didn’t just roll into town. News flash, various groups of them had been there for days. Perhaps they just felt it was time to kick the guy off the couch that kept urinating on their carpet. Everyone knows Prospects can be at times a bit twitchy, even cop club prospects. I seen a few of my deceased uncles “choir practices when I was a younger man. Right up there with any club I have ever seen party, same level of drunkeness and debauchery, except when the choir practice had the cops called on them, they flashed their badges and told the responding officers to **** off.
“A 1%r coming over to me an hassling me about what I am wearing is causing trouble.”
Thats wrong Mark, totally wrong, first thing he is going to to is respectfully request you remove the patch that is offending him. You can either take it off, turn it inside out, or leave. Now, if you really want to live in peace as you stated, you have three options to do so. If you choose option for like Det Smith did in Sturgis…….thats YOUR choice. I Know this first hand through experience. Living in the SF bay area for decades I had attended many of the local dominants runs and parties. As such I had a support patch of theirs on my vest, and, an assortment of their ride pins. I was so excited once to be doing a solo 14 state run in about a month that I completely spaced out on removing all that stuff before I left. Upon arriving in Texas, I was educated to the fact that it was not a good idea to be doing, and somewhat disrespectful. I apologized, was given a piece of duct tape to cover the support patch and I removed the pins and put them in my saddle bag. Then, we all went back to what we were doing, no harm, no foul, and definately no violence.
I’m sorry mark, but the comments about wanting to live in peace are in direct conflict with actions. LEO clubs can not have it both ways. Wear three piece and play by the rules, or, wear one piece and the rules no longer apply.
The peace part is really up to the LEO’s. Their words say one thing, but their actions are otherwise.
And, as far as bullies goes, lets see, in 14 states I was pulled over how many times? But only confronted once by a 1%er club. Now, who’s the bullies.
Oh, and LEOHarley, I understand you don’t believe me. Frankly, I really don’t care what you believe or not. I was there, I know the facts, you don’t, you weren’t there, Nor do i feel inclined to indulge your attitude and prove myself to you.
Windy Joe, I am sure you dont. The problem is who is the sanctioning this “3″ piece patch RULE? I dont understand why I should ask someone if I can wear a piece of clothing! Im sure you dont ask permission do to everything you want to do! Why do the HA’s have a problem with us anyway?
The problem with guys like “wEndy Joe” is they dont like Law Enforcement unless they need something. Just like what was said before if your the one in need of help your not going to call your local HA club to come. Im sure you know the answer to that question.
You see LEOHarley, so, whats the wEndyJoe about if not to be inflamitory. I thought you guys were able to hold a conversation without getting personally confrontational.
Yea, you have shown exactly who you are, another badge wearing loser.
Yea, “we want to live in peace”. that is, as as long as you agree with our viewpoint, and if you don’t, we will get personally inflamitory, and, when you deck us for it, we will pull our gun and shoot you.
Your a pathetic excuse for a man let alone a cop.
Why do any 1%ers have a problem with you? Easy, look how you talk to people when they disagree.
You must be the pride of your department.
One more thing LEOharley, just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should do something.
Sure, you have the right to wear whatever you want to wear. You say you don’t understand why you should ask permission to wear a piece of clothing.
My question is, as a cop, why would you want to wear something you know is going to cause bad feelings and potential hostility? I thought you guys were above all that, I thought you guys claim to be the good guys.
So, sure, you can wear it, but if your truly the good guys, why would you want to?
MarkTexas, as far as keeping things respectful, you see the one who started the “name calling” right?
One of your fellow good guys.
This is typically what happens when you have a badge and a gun but come to a battle of wits completely unarmed.
Starts with name calling.
Bet he’s the kinda guy that beats up a handcuffed suspect when nobody is looking too.
When you’re not a cop, you look at things as the rules of the road. It’s not a big deal, and usually there aren’t any problems. It’s all about repsect. It will always be about respect. I don’t know any riders, independent, or otherwise, that have a problem with the way things are. I guess some cops want to ride with what is considered an “outlaw” patch, ok… that confuses me. Are cops outlaws or not? Some most definatley don’t practice what they preach, have protect and serve on their car, but do the opposite. I wonder if the cop clubs get harassed with the RICO law like everyone else? If you are a cop and wear a 3 piece patch, and that’s thought of as an “outlaw” patch, is that a conflict of interest? What if somebody knows all this, but doesn’t know you are a cop, sees your 3 piece patch and thinks you are an “outlaw”. You tell them you are a cop… wouldn’t they be confused at that point… I know I would be. I certainly would watch you closely out of the corner of my eye… which I do anyway, but you know what I am saying. I’m not trying to start trouble here… I’m just posting a few of my thoughts.
Latest story in the Seattle PI has Iron Pig Smith wrapped up in yet ANOTHER disciplinary action (in conjunction with the already much noted two previous ones).
Seems he acted unprofessionally over a department phone with a member of the HAMC – got recorded – and as a result had to undergo “corrective training”.
The case he tried to inflate against that Angel was dismissed by the DA after the telephone recording was played. Apparently the DA felt Iron Pig Smith (at Sturgis he was not Detective or Officer Smith – in colors and drinking at the bar he was “Iron Pig Smith”) threatened the Angel and that was the end of that.
Now they’re asking where the Angel’s “colors” are since the case was tossed based on the officer’s bad actions – as they were never returned.
Makes one wonder if the cops in Sturgis took Iron Pig Smith’s colors after the shooting?
The weird just got weirder.
I guess the DA had no choice. Good. As for the patch holders patch, I’d like to see that returned, as it should be. I hope this doesn’t mess things up for us for next years rally… but I imagine it will.
Why was Iron Pig smith still on the force after threating to kill the manager at a resturant in Seattle? Why were the Iron Pigs at the Loud American which is a KNOWN HA hangout because its right around the corner from their clubhouse at 3rd and Main. Smith said he feared for his life and was being choked. Thats complete BS, Nobody is going to try and kill someone by choking them in a crowded bar in front of 500 people. The Angels know the bar has videio. Why didn’t the 4 other Iron Pig members come to the aid of their brother? Because Smith did something that even his fellow brothers new was out of line. Smith said there were 3 Angels beating him. More BS, If there were 3 Angels on him he would have never been able to pull a gun and point it and shoot. No one else in the world would have been released after shooting someone in a bar fight except a cop by his brothers (other cops). Tapes will show Smith and his boys had been drinking. He was confronted, got cocky with the Angels and got socked up. Then used his gun instead of equal force. Because without the gun and the badge their nobody’s. The Iron Pigs are way over their heads in the three piece patch outlaw world PERIOD.
WindyJoe – Just as you don’t group all 1%rs or other club members in one group – don’t put all cops in one group. One problem I have always had with EVERY segment of society is they like to stereotype. Cops are as different as the membership of the rest of society. Because we wear a uniform we are easy to stereotype… just as any other uniformed group of people. Just because some Soldier or Marine commits some act of brutality overseas doesn’t mean that they are all the same because they wear a uniform.
I believe I have spoken with respect on this forum. I treat EVERY person I meet with respect without exception. Like you I don’t understand why another can’t do the same. I, normally, assume that when someone starts name calling it is because they can’t think of anything intelligent to say or can’t control their temper.
Windy Joe and 8Ball – on one hand you defend the 1%rs and state that they aren’t all criminals… On the other hand you group all cops together… You can’t have it both ways. Either all 1%rs are the same and all cops are the same, etc. OR, NOT all Cops are the same and NOT all 1%rs are the same.
As far as why we like to wear the three piece patch… Traditionally, a three piece patch signifies a group of persons who have a tighter connection with each other than the one-piece or two-piece “riding” clubs. Also, not all three piece patch clubs are “outlaw” clubs. Actually, there are a lot more smaller three piece patch clubs that are NOT “outlaw” clubs than actual “outlaw” clubs – as someone who was an ABATE Officer would know.
LE Clubs consider ourselves part of the three piece clubs that are not “outlaw” clubs. The only difference is that LE clubs don’t seek permission from the “outlaw” clubs to wear our patches. If any LE club has any sense it will research the patches to make sure they don’t emulate another club’s patches and include some element in the patches that indicate their LE status so that an observant person may make that distinction. ONCE AGAIN, as stated above not everyone is the same.
You find it sad that a cop would want to be a part of a club and would want to wear a three piece patch like many other civilian non-criminally associated clubs. Just like other non 1% three piece clubs we like to show that we are not “just” a “riding” club.
Obviously, either you are going to see it the way the 1%rs have enforced on the biker community or you’re not. 8 Ball – I have spoken to a very large number of bikers, wearing patches of all types who hate the way the “rules of the road” are right now. Many of them will only state their disagreement with the current arrangement when others can’t hear. Their level of caution when speaking about the way things are is because of the culture of fear that is propagated by the 1%rs. I can name off about 25 men who remain independents and refuse to join any club because they simply can’t stand the thought of being told what they can and can’t wear by some 1%r. And, by taking that stance they are complying anyway – against their own wishes.
That in my opinion is just not right.
I find it sad that so many defend the “outlaw” club’s attempts to tell others what they can and can not wear. I’ve seen enough people use baggy clothing to conceal drugs and weapons but, I don’t go around trying to tell others they can’t wear baggy clothing… or, assume they are a criminal because they do so.
WindyJoe and 8Ball – from comments that both of you have made I would guess that both of you are members of a 1% club – But, I freely admit I could be wrong.
This forum string has discussed many separate issues that have been being grouped together.
1- 1%rs being considered criminal by Cops. They are considered this way because there have been so many criminal cases that involve whole sections of a chapter or club. While not all members are criminals they are required to keep silent if another commits the crime. So, in effect they support the crime itself – hence, the “Kill a Rat” and “Silence a Snitch” T-shirts I have seen worn by 1%rs. Does that sometimes happen in LE – yes. But, this is not knowingly tolerated by our organization as a whole and when good cops can kick bad cops out of the “club” then we do with prejudice – and, if we can – we file charges on them also. Does this always happen – sadly… No.
2 – “One last time, I’m wondering how many of those in the upper ranks and leadership of these departments would approve…” Can’t speak to the “confrontational manner” But, my boss knows and has no problem with my club membership. In my club alone we have two Deputy Chiefs, one from an East Coast agency and one from a Southwest Agency and many members that are in upper ranks in their departments. Not a problem.
3 – “Wearing an unsanctioned 3 piece patch in an area they claim as their territory and expecting to be left alone is like visiting my house uninvited and urinating on my carpet and being expected to be left alone.” Not true. If I went to their home and urinated on their carpet I would expect an ass whipping. But, I don’t plan nor expect to ever go to a 1%r’s home – much less urinate on the carpet. Their attitude is no different than a street thug with a blue bandanna claiming whatever street and shooting someone who is wearing a red bandanna. If it isn’t about claiming territory for the sole right to pursue illegal activity in that territory… Than what is it about? I am a cop. The conversations I have had with 1%r’s have always agreed that we and they don’t mix and such there was no conflict of interest. They knew that because I was a cop I was not going to piss in their living room. They couldn’t be certain about a civilian three piece club – so, they enforced their “rules.” Going back to #1 – if they aren’t engaged in illegal activity – why be so concerned about “territory?” LE MC’s (generally) don’t engage in criminal activity, and so, are no threat.
4 – Bullies – “And, as far as bullies goes, lets see, in 14 states I was pulled over how many times?” That is a training issue among LE agencies. Unfortunately (fortunately) biker culture is still a minority culture in this country. As such it is not very well understood by the majority. That includes Cops. So, to this day you will still have cops that believe all bikers are the same and many don’t know the difference between a Gypsy and a Pagan.
5 – I know this is a hard pill to swallow for a 1%. But, if they were really concerned with their reputation among LE or with being stopped less by Cops they would be MORE friendly to the LE clubs. The LE club membership have a greater understanding of biker culture, how “things work,” and will be more inclined to treat a biker (including any club member) with respect and impartiality than ANY non-club member Cop. (ONCE AGAIN – not always – but, most of the time!)
I have devoted entirely too much time to these postings. From the above posts I don’t believe that we will reach any consensus on our opinions. So, hopefully, we can just agree to disagree.
WindyJoe – I appreciate the respectful tone you have used while having this discussion. May your rubber never leave the ground, the wind always blow in your hair, and the rain never fall on your ride.
MarkTexas – I was thrown in jail for something I didn’t do one time, and served 2 weeks before I went in front of a judge. I then had to ple guily to get out of jail, or stay in with a court date to be set for a leter time.
Another time I was thron on the back of a police car face first. I was then cuffed and thrown in the back of the car and driven about 5 minutes before the radio stated the “suspect” had been aprehended. I was dropped off in town near charity hospital (my face was messed up from the brutality), and left to fend for myself.
Another time I was stopped at a check point in my cage, and it was determined my tags were out of date. I walked until I got a ride home. I went back to see me car vangalized. My tags were not out of date, the cops were just morons. The sheriff threw out the ticket and acted as if he was doing me a favor. I still had to pay for the damages to my cage, and it was a badges fault.
I have more, but will stop here. Why would I think all cops are one thing? Would it be all the bad experiences I’ve had, unfair treatment by these high school bullies grown up and now carrying guns?
I doesn’t matter. I can’t trust anyone that thinks everyone is guilty at first glance. Even if I am guilty, I have rights. Rights that don’t exist in the eyes of the cops Ive seen in my life. The funny thing is, I wasn’t guily when these incidents took place. How am I supposed to trust someone that doesn’t trust me? I can’t.
Andy Griffith… he doesn’t exist.
The law doesn’t work, not for me, not for anyone, anyone believing that is blind and has bought a bunch of hooey someone was selling… you know what does work?
What I have with whom I have it, and my bike.
Respect.
Well boys and girls, here we go, the charges against officer Smith include
Aggravated assault, perjury, and weapons charges.
Seems that neat little federal law doesn’t count if you been drinking or have a history of disapline problems in your department. Hmmmm,
Perjury, guess the grand jury don’t like it when someone testifies one way and the evidence says something else, they frown on that.
Oh, and his buddies got brought up on weapons charges too.
So, I think we have seen over the last couple weeks what we already actually knew all along.
There are some guys out there in uniform that do one hell of a job every day. They put it on the line and deal even handed and fair with everyone.
And, there are some who should have never been allowed to put the badge on in the first place and have abused it every step of the way.
Sad but true.
I’m proud of the SD states attorney having the guts tu pursue it, I’m sure there was more than a little pressure to make it all go away.
Mark
Nope, not a club member. In my past I have hung around, have considered prospecting but, I’m an independent.
I have many good friends in clubs though. But, to really be a part of a three piece club, it takes a certain level of committment that my life path does not include. I see what the guys I know have sacrificed in their lives to be a part of that club, and, they accept it because they love their club and brothers.
I’m a family guy, different priorities in life, but, that does not stop me from knowing and beliving in the traditions and how things work.
That you think me a club man, I will take as a compliment.
WindyJoe,
You failed to point out the fact that the HA gang member was also charged with “aggravated assault” That doesn’t suprise me though. We know who your siding with.
omg , what the hell ,,,, omg GANG MEMEBER dude . i’m NOT 1%er but i gotta say (i wont pimp what club i represnt ,)but i gotta say GANG MEMBER
OMG ,what the hell GANG MEMBER, geeze man , i am a patch hold with a club , i wont name drop or pimp my colors , and i am not a 1%er but i gotta say WHAT THE HELL!
i have been called a gang member a few times and i’m not gonna cry about it but ,my cut as well as all others(and i’m saying this out of respect to ALL CLUBS 1% AND 10 % and 99%er and even those pesky r.c types
AS WELL AS ALL LEO CLUBS (not that they deserve it ) but any patch that says m.c . AINT NO FREAKIN GANG !
IT STANDS FOR MOTORCYCLE . CLUB .
if its not an m.c. then its an .r.c if its neither then its an asoation or how ever its spelles , if its none of the above then he or she is an indpentent ,
Hmmmm. One HA charged with one count, Smith charged with 3 counts, several other police officers charged with other counts. Not hard to see whose side the law is on.
Windyjoe,
Maybe the reason you had such a bad time in texas is because your ” Support Patch was the wrong color ”
After all Texas is a Red & Gold State
Hey iron pig smith next time you go after a seahawks fan better watch out might have my cousin and her seagals sisters put knots on your head bad boy.
I see you deleted my other posts LOL fuck you possers!!!!!
Hmmmm i been a 1%er for going on 28 years.RED AND GOLD 1%ER !!!!!!!!!
@ Sixpack – didn’t want the redirect to the XXX site. Repost your previous comment and I’ll approve, but leave the URL blank.
Check your email Glen…I tried to explain, but I’m not running this blog to host SPAM or provide redirects so others can push porn!
-Mac
Its funny in this country that cops get away with every thing from being child molesters to murders and most often get a slap on the hand for their bad deeds.In this case sounds like this pud let his mouth over loud his ass as he has done in the past.As for calling them hero’s if they saved my mother or sister from crime i think back to my PMOL JENNY WHO AS A GIRL WAS MOLESTED BY A COP and yes she was murdered by a meth head who after 21 years on the run was caught and then the da’s office let him go.Was he a snitch yes he was and still is!!!!!Aint that right murray!!!!I think that the grand jury should let the H.A. pistol whip the little i.p. BITCH 1% !!!!! M.F.F.M 1%ERS NOMAD
WTF are you talking porn spam ? I like fried spam sandwichs with mustard. Thats cool i will take back the fuck you to you thats it. Want to put some money on a bet i think the seagals can take the ironpigs.
I get it my web site entry FTIP’S@KISSMYASS.COM LOL.At first i though you were getting kinky with a can of spam LOL.
Well I will bet the solution to this problem will be for most biker events will eventually ban the wearing of “colors”…
nobody would ever tell me what I could or couldnt wear…
Just mind your own business…if you run your mouth to the wrong person and get your ass kicked then you have learned a lesson…dont matter if your a cop or a 1%er…
If its one on one I’ll fight fair…when its two or three on one i’d shoot too. But i wasnt there and didn’t see it…
I met an IPMC once when my bike broke down in Enumclaw on the side of the road.
He was nice, drove home, got this truck, and offered to drive me and my bike home back to Seattle at 3:00 in the morning.
Not all IPMC’s are assholes running their mouth’s.
As a corrections ofc. I’ve been allowed to hang around with a few of the local clubs, who are in Outlaw M.C. territory. ie Outlaw bitch clubs. Talk about possers? Anyway I decided they weren’t for me when I over heard one of their club Presidents talking about how much he hated cops and wanted to bash a couple of them, but in the 2 years since I heard him they haven’t confronted any law enforcement agency. Guess talking tough is what they’re about. Thank God! After alot of talk some friends and I decided to form a group founded on an anti-drug theme. We had no colors we certainly claimed no territory. But this did bring out the bullies. The tough guys went straight to my wife’s work and told her what they were gonna do with me. My friends decided it would be better to let our group disband before someone got hurt….This year I was invited to join an L.E.M.C. and did so. I relish my new brothers as stand up guys and wear my colors proudly. As for the ” bad boys” they yell and flip me off when ever they see me , ” at least when I’m out alone without my patch on”.
I’ve added two things to the front of my vest “Fas est res” which means “Do the right thing” and a small patch that says “99%”
SIX PACK 1%ER MISFITS M.C. NOMAD,
Is the gang your in some gay motorcycle club for convicted felons just out of prison?
Update: The three piece patch is NOT an outlaw or one percenter invention so get over it. The 1% diamond patch is. Keep it and wear it with pride if you want to.
And don’t confuse respect with fear.
Caesar
to omg
If we were gay felons we’d have already gotten your news letter…. The assless chaps gang
Wow… “Would you leave me alone if i dressed up like a cop and started directing traffic at a big jam up, even if I was doing a good job you would arrest me. Period.” Hillarious.
It’s almost scary that men sworn to uphold the law and responsible for civil order can’t see how wearing 3 piece patches will result in the exact opposite… “it’s a free country” true but come on, you don’t see it? Really?
I enjoy sea life but if I put on a seal costume and went scuba diving with the great whites would anybody be suprised if the sharks ignored my rights?
No disrespect, I enjoyed reading reading the discussion for the most part. Seriously though, 3 piece patches are a statement within a sub culture that any truly good cop obviously does not understand. As silly as the the above qoute is, it’s really that simple.
“but officer I’m just a good citizen trying to relieve some of the congestion and I watched every episode of chips and my cousin was a trooper for 30 years” “I understand, go ahead and face my car and put your hands on the hood for me- have you got anything sharp on you that’s going to stick me, any weapons, guns, knives, bazookas?”
Correction- 3 piece patches are a statement within a sub culture that any truly good cop that WEARS THEM obviously does not understand.
No not at all been a 1%ER for 28 years not a felony on my record some people work for a living.Have been in the Army and Navy also.You know i grew up on the streets as a run away and have watched people do crimes but i can see that they live on the streets and some times a crime might put food on a persons familys plate because this country is to busy taken care of illegals and fuck the rest of us.But when cops think they are above the law and break the law well i think they should takem out and hangem.14-88.
Booger what are you trying to do give me nightmares i’ll never look at chaps the same damn you.As a bouncer at different night clubs and a couple Stripp joints I have met Correction offs and Police offs not saying you people like naked women and all.The last Correction off i met was in a fight with about 2 or 3 guys ( some thing about a woman wouldnt you know ) anyways the one guy punched him in the throat i kept them off him he asked me later what or how i can repay you for your help just treat the brothers on the inside with respect some are there for what they did some are there for shit they didnt do i told him. RESPECT IS NOT THAT BIG OF A WORD BUT WHAT IT IS IS !!!!!! But i have to add this this RICO shit how come they dont use that on cops if one is bad your all bad kinda like the shit they pull on 1%ERS right.And omg fuck you!!!!
Well i guess its late and no one wants write stupid shit!!!!Anyways Ed Bruce and Willy are singing the Last Cowboy Song gota go.1% !!!!!!!!!!!
Face it there are good and bad in all orginizations. I have biker bros that will cover my back and I have some that I will not trust. I have LEO friends that are straight up and I know some who I have no respect for and do not trust. That is life.
I rode with a small “want-a-be” one percent club in the early 70’s Most members have died or gotten out. The club was disbanded after all the he** raised over 3 piece patches. I still remember the friendship and feeling that everyone “had my back” This comradarie still exists today. It is displayed in 1% clubs, one patch clubs, two patch clubs and even in “Hog” membership. We are all gregarious and want to belong.
Back to the shooting: someone in public trust should be above violence in a public place. Case closed.
I was there and although my old worn out hide is not worth much I still have a few miles left. We trust those sworn to “Protect and Serve” to be examples of high standards, not to be the ones we need to fear.
I have not been on this forum for awhile as I have to much work to do.
However, charges do not equate conviction as many of you know. Many times in highly public cases the police will file charges on a LEO to allow the Grand Jury to determine whether or not there is enough evidence to proceed. This is to show the public that the police are not trying to cover up the crime and to allow a non biased group detemine whether to proceed or not. The Grand Jury dropped all charges except the carrying a firearm charge.
Now, first let me state that ignorance is no excuse for violation of the law. However, I do understand the misunderstanding here. This national law was put out in LE circles as allowing LEO’s to carry in other states just as in their own states… Which is to say – anywhere! BUT, the National Law that was passed gives LEO’s (as I understand it) the right to carry in other states – as a Concealed Handgun License holder. Which means they can’t carry in bars, private places, with posted signs, schools, courts, etc.
So, they (the IP’s) were wrong to carry in the bar – as I understand that law. But, the Grand Jury reviewed the evidence, including video of the whole incident) and dropped all the other charges.
8 Ball – I can’t speak to all of you incidents involving Cops. I can say that LE training has come a long way in the last 10 years. I wonder at your attitude, demeanor, and compliance with requests when you were dealt with by LEO’s in the past. But, I concede that what happened to you still could happen today. Cops and LE Agencies are like any other people and/or organizations. Most are good – a few are bad. Each company/government entity has it’s own corporate culture. I know a Deputy Sheriff in my Office who arrested a Bandido about 10 yrs ago at a bar. The Bandido asked to be allowed to take his cut off and give it to his Ol’Lady so it wouldn’t have to be placed in jail property. The Deputy uncuffed him and allowed him to do so. The Bandido returned was recuffed and driven to jail. The Bandido thanked the Deputy. Just because your experiences have all been bad doesn’t mean all cops are bad. But, considering your experience I respect and understand your view.
WindyJoe – the reference to your possibly being a club member was not meant to be derogatory. It has been a joy to have a respectful discussion with you. We may not agree. But, it was a pleasure discussing our disagreement.
ezrider – Unfortunately, you are most likely correct. If incidents continue – most likely there will come a time when no colors are allowed in bars.
Shell – you need to read post #42. That is correct and you are mistaken.
To all EXCEPT Six Pack thank you for keeping your posts respectful.
Six Pack – It is commonly known among educated people that the uneducated or ignorant are the first to respond with invective or insults. From your responses it is obvious that you lack the knowledge for an educated discussion. So, I will disregard any comment you have made.
I have to get to work and will not be back on this forum. Thanks to mac for the hosting!
I was in a hurry when I typed that last post. So, sorry for the typo’s.
This is an interesting discussion.
A 3 piece patch is not what makes any biker a 1%er or outlaw. The actions of the individual by participating in criminal activity or supporting criminal activity is what makes someone an outlaw. The 1% designation was made by AMA based off the 1% of riders that did not agree with the laws imposed and refused to follow the edicts suggested by the AMA. Would a CoC or dominat clubs even approve the patch colors or design of a LE MC, even if 3 piece, if permission was asked? Most if not all CoC’s do not allow LE clubs to be members. I agree with the statement that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck it most likely is a duck. I do not agree with “LE MC’s” that want to be law abiding citizens while on the job and then portray themselves as outlaws by night. Public safety MC’s such as the Blue Knights and Red Knights who wear a 3 piece patch do not do so claiming to be dominant to a specific territory or with intent to disrespect anyone, but only to identify where the chapter is located.
Good point.
LE Clubs cannot ask their local CoC (typically made up of outlaw type clubs) for permission to do anything. There is a huge conflict of interest there so it most likely won’t happen.
You are also correct in that LE type clubs do not claim territory. There is no need to.
In addition, a number of one percenter type clubs believe that the three piece patch was their invention. It wasn’t.
I have mentioned it already but a good example of a three piece patch club that has been around for awhile is the Boozefighters M/C. They have been around since 1946 – way before most of the one percenters and/or outlaw clubs came on the scene.
BFMC is not a one percenter club as stated on their website and they have, or have had, LE types in their ranks.
VALEO
“I do not agree with “LE MC’s” that want to be law abiding citizens while on the job and then portray themselves as outlaws by night. Public safety MC’s such as the Blue Knights and Red Knights who wear a 3 piece patch do not do so claiming to be dominant to a specific territory or with intent to disrespect anyone, but only to identify where the chapter is located.”
Not sure what it is you are trying to say. Which LEMC’s are you referring to that ‘portray themselves as outlaws at night’? Any and all that choose to wear a 3 piece?
You also segregated the Blue Knights as a “public safety MC”, going on to say that they do not claim territory or have intentions of disrespecting anyone.
First of all, I believe your info is incorrect. The Blue Knights are NOT a public safety mc, although it somehow sounds nicer. They are, in fact an LEMC as stated on their website.
“Blue Knights International Law Enforcement Motorcycle Club”.
…’for all active and retired law enforcement…” They also wear a 3 piece with their bottom rocker having their state or in the case of CA, their state & chapt. number. (since there are so many chapt’s there) Although some members still wear the non threatening powder blue leather vests, many are wearing the black (outlaw?) vest with their patch & bottom rocker with location.
The only people who care about “territory” are street gangs and outlaw bike clubs who make their money selling/dealing drugs, guns, bike parts.
I guess I just find it odd that you choose to use the quack duck quote for all LEMC’s except the Blue Knights? Why is that?
k`lam
If you wanna play in the big boys’ sandbox, you gotta play by the big boys’ rules. If you don’t (or won’t) play by the big boys’ rules,… stay the hell outa the damn sandbox!
Respects,
Hermano Roadrash
It ain’t their so called sandbox anymore. Law abiding folks are taking it back.
This is for all you cop-hating criminal lovers to read….When the truth comes out…The good guys prevail…. If your a (99%r)citizen, be certain you will be protected from the scum….If your a 1%r(Criminal) we will continue to watch your outlaw colors run!!!!
Court Rules Cops Can Carry Guns … Nationwide!
Last update: 3:11 p.m. EST Nov. 18, 2008
SPRINGFIELD, Va., Nov 18, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ — Good Guys Can Fight Back – Criminals Beware!
A ruling on a case from South Dakota — where off-duty law enforcement officers were criminally charged for carrying guns despite the authority to do so under the federal ‘Law Enforcement Officer’s Safety Act of 2004′ (LEOSA) — has confirmed that all qualified off-duty and retired law enforcement are allowed, by federal law, to carry a concealed gun for personal self-defense irrespective of state law. The federal law supersedes the crazy, confusing and often conflicted state and local laws that limit legitimate self-defense.
LEAA’s Executive Director, Jim Fotis said, “When LEAA co-authored the original draft of what became affectionately known as ‘National Cop Carry’ back in the early 1990’s, I knew it would save cops’ lives and give those who choose to resist violent criminals a fighting chance. In 2004 I shook President Bush’s hand after he signed our bill into law and rejoiced that our fight — for more than a decade — was finally over!”
The local prosecutor’s apparent effort to challenge the federal law, and send a message to all in law enforcement not to carry a gun for self-defense in South Dakota, was soundly rejected! Thankfully, after careful review, the gun charges against the officers were dismissed. “The Judge’s crystal clear and unambiguous legal opinion should be required reading for every prosecutor in the nation so that no other law enforcement professionals, active or retired, have to endure what those officers and agents have endured in South Dakota,” declared Carl Rowan, LEAA’s Vice President.
Robert Van Norman and Kenneth Orrock, Attorneys for the officers, said “We are pleased with the court’s decision, as it reaffirms the intent of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act and in effect will protect law enforcement officers and our communities. The law enforcement community should find comfort that LEOSA has been properly applied in this case.”
A copy of the Judge’s memorandum decision — and extensive background information on LEOSA — is available at the LEAA website: http://www.leaa.org
The Law Enforcement Alliance of America, Inc., (LEAA) is the nation’s largest not for profit, non-partisan coalition of law enforcement professionals, crime victims, and concerned citizens dedicated to making America safer.
SOURCE Law Enforcement Alliance of America